Christening or no christening?????

Bestthingsinlifearefree

absolutebounder wrote: »

Search google for mental abuse or child abuse in religion there are millions of sites.
By not putting religious restrictions in to achilds mind is not going to cause problems later in life.

Again can you provide a link to academic proof that mental abuse or child abuse occurs more in faith / religious households / schools than non faith households schools?

india

Is your partner religious?

If you both not religious. Why get the baby christened? Baptism has a meaning and it's not to be taken lightly. The child will be welcomed into a family. Can you commit to regularly taking your child to church?

I'm having my baby christened. I had my first child christened and he goes to a catholic school. I tak him to church every fortnight.

as for the cost it cost as much as you want it too.

The service is free. You don't have to have a gathering after. Or you can arrange something that suits your budget i.e. small buffet.

Bestthingsinlifearefree

absolutebounder wrote: »

You love the tricky ones dont you? i think my answer was truthful and would suffice. I do like your answer as well. The child would be far too young for a full blown debate. As it is there are several mainstream religions all fighting for your vote that cannot in amongst them selves agree much on God. They all think their god is better than yours. The problem with a straight no is that at 5 they are going to come into contact with religious education of some sort and this RE in this country is likely to be subtle but extremely powerful because the bible has been rewritten into nice story's for the children and children believe story's with a vengeance. The bible has in fact been rewritten for adults as well by the catholics to leave out a lot of things hence the fuss over the davinci code and Jesuses brothers and sister. I could debate the existence of god with a teacher but a 5 yr old cant and certainly wouldnt.
Your last question is much easier as I would point to all the suffering on the world and say if god was really the creator of this he wouldnt want to see so much destruction of his own good work.

I agree there is a strong arguement for there only to be a secular education system.

However to bring your child up in a religious or agnostic or athiest household is an equal "indoctrination" of the child by the parent which ever of the 3 viewpoints the parent takes.

Imagine you bring your child up as a non-believer and then when he is older and can rationalise etc he believes in God 100%. Think of all then psychological damage you have done to the child now he discovers all that athiest "bad information" you fed him before he was old enough to know any better.;)

absolutebounder

Bestthingsinlifearefree wrote: »

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Imagine you bring your child up as a non-believer and then when he is older and can rationalise etc he believes in God 100%. Think of all then psychological damage you have done to the child now he discovers all that athiest "bad information" you fed him before he was old enough to know any better.;)

This is wrong because as an Atheist you are not putting anything in. all learning starts from zero and so if he grows up thinking that there is no god (very unlikely due to the pressure of our education sysytem) and he then thinks there is there is no damage done because he has not been fed bad information. However bring him up to believe he is inferior to others because he has gay feelings or cant have normal sexual desires outside marriage or that he has to bow down in front of a man made god etc is bad. To bring him up believing there are 27 virgins waiting if he becomes a martyr by blowing up a few jews or christians is wrong especially if he finds there is no heaven let alone the virgins.
How can an atheist suffer problems from restrictions of religion when he has none in the first place. yes an atheist may have mantal illness and other problems but they are not brought about by believing that you cant mastubate without going blind or wont have an afterlife unless you cionfess to arbritary sins once a week etc etc

inkie

There is a lot of power and wealth at the top end of religion so faith stops you rocking the boat. it wouldnt surprise me if the pope knew god didnt exist but he isnt about to give up his jollies is he. He will keep on spouting the same old lies and half truths and those people suffering in Africa from aids? well its their fault and no they cant have condoms they can carry on dying.
Approximately 1 billion people believe this man is the closest to god we can get. Some message of compassion he gives out. if that is gods love I dont want to see his hate

This is the type of thing I was eluding to when sugguesting that religion sometimes gets in the way of faith. I am a vicar - who do I look to for the way to conduct my ministry and to live out my faith - God and God alone. Period. He is the initiator and anointer of my ministry, and to Him that I am accountable. People can get so bogged down by the 'church' that it detracts from a real relationship with God.

absolutebounder

inkie wrote: »

This is the type of thing I was eluding to when sugguesting that religion sometimes gets in the way of faith. I am a vicar - who do I look to for the way to conduct my ministry and to live out my faith - God and God alone. Period. He is the initiator and anointer of my ministry, and to Him that I am accountable. People can get so bogged down by the 'church' that it detracts from a real relationship with God.

That puts a nice spin on it to have a vicar in the debate. I now realise what you meant by religion getting in the way of faith though in opinion we are probably diametrically opposed.
I wonder what your opinion is on the way your church is going in the light of the fact that the Archbishop of canterbury has suggested that creationism should no longer be taught presumably accepting that Darwin was more right than the bible.
I would also be interested in your views about the original theme of this thread regarding Christening. Is it appropriate at so young an age when the baby has no chance of making his / her mind up about the subject? Is it appropriate when the parents themselves are not committed to the church. in your experience do you find families doing it for all the wrong reasons ie keeping up with the jones and an excuse for a booze up?

inkie

As my denomination is not part of the established church but a 'free church', then we do not have such a thing as infant baptism (i.e. where (usually) an infant is basically made a member of the church) what we do have is 2 types of service - one is a 'dedication' service - this is where the parents (no godparents) make promises to bring the child up in the Christian faith and everything that entails. This is something that would most likely be taken up by practicing Christians, and would not make the child a member of the church. The other service that we offer is a 'thanksgiving' service - which in my experience is taken up by those people who are not christians, or of nominal faith who want to thank God for the gift of their child. No one service is better than the other, but different in that it caters for individual circumstances. When approached by a family, first I would go and visit them at home and discuss the nature of the services, and go through the promises that they will be making for either service, and let them pick which is appropriate for their needs i.e. thanksgiving or dedication. I am up front (straight-talking yorkshire girl!), and tell them that there is no point in promising to do something that you a) can't or b) have no intention of doing. Their child is worth more than that - and God sees their intentions any way!
I suspect that a lot of families go down the traditional Christening route in the established church, because there is no middle ground ( I may be wrong, but spent many years in the anglican church as a worshipper and only ever saw infant baptisms and no other type of ceremony i.e. where they want to thank God for their child, but at the same time do not wish to promise to bring them up as Christians.) Perhaps people who are not church goers need to be looking to non-conformist churches who may be better able to accomodate their needs?
I did a funeral a couple of weeks ago, and as I was coming out of the working mens club after the wake and guy approached me and said that he had been to hundreds of funerals in his time - but the one that he had just gone to was the only one that left him feeling uplifted. I am not 'blowing my own trumpet' - everything that I do as part of my ministry is to bring glory to God, but church needs to be relevant and appealing - same gospel, same love of God that is being preached but able to engage with people today in language that they understand. So many people are put off the concept of church as they see it as stuffy and boring, singing hymns that remind them of their school days, having to sit through a 40 min sermon etc.... It needn't be like this.
I love being able to 'church' for families for the 'ceremonies of life', as they can see that you can be Christian, and normal!

margaretclare

Hello, inkie

Yes, you're right - my DH and I have found that a nonconformist church best accommodates our needs.

When we got together I was a practising Catholic. I informed my then parish priest and he almost had a stroke on the spot. I was immediately barred from Communion. I knew we would eventually be wanting to get married, and neither the Catholic church I was a member of, nor the local Anglican church, would be willing to marry us - he was divorced, he wasn't baptised. I wasn't willing to go anywhere that didn't welcome him. So we went to the local Methodist Church and we found the warmest and most Christian of welcomes.

We were married in our Methodist Church in January 2002. All our minister needed to satisfy herself about was that his previous marriage break-up was in no way my fault, it was dead before I ever knew him. We had a lovely simple joyful wedding, with all the members of our church community involved and celebrating it with us.

In the summer of 2004 he chose to be baptised and to be confirmed in the Methodist Church.

We have a lot of young people coming along now, the Toddler Group has been a way of showing many young parents that church is not boring and stuffy, at least it needn't be! And yes, a child is a gift, and why not say 'Thank you' for that gift?

Margaret

pegginout

my sister in law (husbands sis) had her kids baptised just to get them in a good school!!!!!
the local catholic primary is excellent, other local schools are not v good.
you do what you have to for your child!

absolutebounder

pegginout wrote: »

my sister in law (husbands sis) had her kids baptised just to get them in a good school!!!!!
the local catholic primary is excellent, other local schools are not v good.
you do what you have to for your child!

Very disturbing that your children should have to undergo an assault of catholocism just to get a good education. The state is obviously failing