Christening or no christening?????

Bestthingsinlifearefree

absolutebounder wrote: »

This is wrong because as an Atheist you are not putting anything in. all learning starts from zero and so if he grows up thinking that there is no god (very unlikely due to the pressure of our education sysytem) and he then thinks there is there is no damage done because he has not been fed bad information. However bring him up to believe he is inferior to others because he has gay feelings or cant have normal sexual desires outside marriage or that he has to bow down in front of a man made god etc is bad. To bring him up believing there are 27 virgins waiting if he becomes a martyr by blowing up a few jews or christians is wrong especially if he finds there is no heaven let alone the virgins.
How can an atheist suffer problems from restrictions of religion when he has none in the first place. yes an atheist may have mantal illness and other problems but they are not brought about by believing that you cant mastubate without going blind or wont have an afterlife unless you cionfess to arbritary sins once a week etc etc

Hi Absolute bonder,

Good discussion.

The weakness in your arguement is that all the points you make can be applied to athiest society e.g homophobia, sexism, terrorism etc all happens amongst non-believers.

Secondly you only focus on "negative" aspects of religion what about all the positive religion gives to children morality, hope, purpose and meaning of life.

You seem to think religious upbringing is a cause of mental illness / psychological problems more so that a secular upbringing but offer no evidence to support this.

An athiest society can be just if not more unhealthy than a religious society.

Also it comes down to interpretation if a child is taught a religion of hate rather than a God of love and compassion obviously it makes a difference.

absolutebounder

Bestthingsinlifearefree wrote: »

Hi Absolute bonder,

Good discussion.

I agree it is a good debate

The weakness in your arguement is that all the points you make can be applied to athiest society e.g homophobia, sexism, terrorism etc all happens amongst non-believers.

Not really, in any human being there are good and bad emotions. with an Atheist I am not saying they dont exist but they are not being added to by the restrictions of religion. I ought to say her I am mainly talking of the monotheist religions. religion imposes further restrictions ie in Islam do you believe a woman has equal rights? In Catholocism I would ask the same question. Millions and millions of acts of atrocity have been carried out to further religion. Read the old testament and you will see how homophobic the old god was. terrorism has been carried out by fundamentalist groups from all side. How many atheist terrorists can you name?

Secondly you only focus on "negative" aspects of religion what about all the positive religion gives to children morality, hope, purpose and meaning of life.

The positive aspects are already there for an Atheist The negative ones are not

You seem to think religious upbringing is a cause of mental illness / psychological problems more so that a secular upbringing but offer no evidence to support this.

Slight twisting of words here. I deal with quite a few psychological problems that are rooted in peoples minds from the rules implanted in them by their religious teachers. There are plenty of sites devoted to child abuse and religion but we are not just talking sex abuse but mental scarring as is portrayed brilliantly by the film the magdalen sisters. I have people who cant get on in life because they are racked with guillt I know people that cant have normal relationships with the opposite sex. I know people who have been sexually abused by members of their religion

An athiest society can be just if not more unhealthy than a religious society.

Not a positive argument. many christians would regard an Islamic society unhealthy and no doubt many moslems would view a Christian society as unhealthy. I can admit that any society could be unhealthy but I am not sure why an Atheist society would be More inhealthy. After all ans Atheist society is likely to be a democracy but religious society is a dictatorship

Also it comes down to interpretation if a child is taught a religion of hate rather than a God of love and compassion obviously it makes a difference.

I almost agree with the last bit but why do you need a Sky fairy to love someone? Religion of hate is obviously bad, but a god of love and compassion? Where is that when we have babies dying from horrible disease and famine? If the god is so powerful why does he want his creation to die and suffer right from birth. Simple answer is there is no god that created all these things. If you believe that god created things perhaps you can explain how man creates new strains of viruses and bacteria in the biological warfare labs Is this the work of man or is god creating the nasties. Was dolly the sheep (an animal that was alive and running around) one of mans creations or one of gods?

Bestthingsinlifearefree

Hi Absolutebounder,

You are mixing lot of things up.

Because "bad" things are done in the name of religion does not mean religion is bad. Look at all the millions of good things done in the name of religion.

Look at the mass murders by athiest regimes such as Stalin or Pol Pot or Hitler etc etc.

Do psychiatrists have no athiest patients :rolleyes: The UK is a very secular society yet we are overrun with illnesses of the mind.

It is well accepted that having "faith" in a greater power is a very important factor in good mental health.

All you can see in religion is "bad" and all you can see in athiesm is "good".

It must be comforting to have such a clear dogmatic view of the world but life is more complex than that.

Religion can be a force for evil and it can be a force for incredible good and positive development.

Religion comes down to faith but it is also a positive way to live your life.

Here is another question for you absolutebounder.

Would you be sad or pleased if your children lived their life by the 10 commandments? (If it was up to you would you prefer they lived their life by the 10 commandments or not?)

MortgageMamma

Bestthingsinlifearefree wrote: »

Hi Absolutebounder,
It is well accepted that having "faith" in a greater power is a very important factor in good mental health.

I would think a more important and relevant factor in maintaining good mental health is faith in oneself

Why would you put your faith into something you cannot touch, see, smell, hear or taste or judge in real time just because someone says you should?

Bestthingsinlifearefree

MortgageMamma wrote: »

IWhy would you put your faith into something you cannot touch, see, smell, hear or taste or judge in real time just because someone says you should?

Like oxygen?;)

absolutebounder

Bestthingsinlifearefree wrote: »

Like oxygen?;)

Oxygen can be quantified scientificaly God cannot. its amazing that we can detect all sorts of energy, atoms can be understood, Far galaxies seen, Evolution of life yet the 3 pillars of christianity God heaven and hell have never been detected in any way

Bestthingsinlifearefree

absolutebounder wrote: »

Oxygen can be quantified scientificaly God cannot. its amazing that we can detect all sorts of energy, atoms can be understood, Far galaxies seen, Evolution of life yet the 3 pillars of christianity God heaven and hell have never been detected in any way

If God / heaven could be proved there would be no athiests and if God / heaven could be disproved there would be no religion.

absolutebounder

Bestthingsinlifearefree wrote: »

Hi Absolutebounder,

You are mixing lot of things up.

Because "bad" things are done in the name of religion does not mean religion is bad. Look at all the millions of good things done in the name of religion.

LIke what? What has been done that specifically couldnt be done without religion?

Look at the mass murders by athiest regimes such as Stalin or Pol Pot or Hitler etc etc.

They pale into insignificance with the atrocities committed by people with religion on their side. Who said Hitler was Atheist I dont think too much is known of his religious views apart from the hate of jews but that was ethnic cleansing. Once again do you know Pol Pot was non religious

Do psychiatrists have no athiest patients :rolleyes: The UK is a very secular society yet we are overrun with illnesses of the mind.

This is a totally daft question as explained earlier Atheists can be sick in the mind just as religious people can but they are not subject to the added problems of religious upbringing.

It is well accepted that having "faith" in a greater power is a very important factor in good mental health.

By Whom I think Dawkins got it right with his comment When one person suffers a delusion we call it insanity. When a whole mass suffer a delusion we call it religion.

All you can see in religion is "bad" and all you can see in athiesm is "good".

I have never said that but I cant see what good there is that needs religion People can be good if they want to. Your statement presumes all religions are good. Are you saying Female circumcision is good because it is a religious ceremony maybe not in your church but nevertheless its part of religion so its good or are you saying you can only be good with your religion.

It must be comforting to have such a clear dogmatic view of the world but life is more complex than that.

I dont have to cover up what I dont know with faith so yes things are more simple

Religion can be a force for evil and it can be a force for incredible good and positive development.

I like the careful biasing in this sentence. religion can be a force for incredible evil and negative devellopment (just to even the sentence up)

Religion comes down to faith but it is also a positive way to live your life.

I love this. You have to believe in something you dont know and cant quantify and this is a positive way to live????????????????????

Here is another question for you absolutebounder.

Would you be sad or pleased if your children lived their life by the 10 commandments? (If it was up to you would you prefer they lived their life by the 10 commandments or not?)

The 10 commandments are very good as a framework for life but you dont really believe they popped out of the mountain air one day do you? Just because one cult comes up with an idea doesnt mean its a bad one I dare say if I studied scientology I could find some good points but it doesnt mean we should all be scientologist. Thgere are probably some good points in the qoran but that doesnt mean we should believe it all.
Ive answered your question perhaps you could answer mine on creation of life.

inkie

to ensure they remain a "pure being" and have an aura of saintliness which will ensure respect and admiration from the worshippers and I think thats really sad for the priests. They should be allowed a life too.

Had to smile at that one MM! Someone one told me that in their opinion it was so that the church would not have to support the family!?

MortgageMamma

Well that could be a valid reason as well families are expensive!

But I do think the reason is to put them on the moral highground above the rest of the "sinners" and to set an example.

I quite like the Vicar of Dibley though. She's fab.