Here we go again......

Carl31

marisco wrote: »

When a person first starts out on their relationship with drugs, alcohol, gambling etc, they are capable of making choices. Once they are addicted those rational decisions become harder to make. Hence why so many seek professional help to safely stop.

A person will usually turn to substances when they are already in a place they need help. By this point they are already unable to think rationally. The substance initially helps them to manage, but eventually takes over. Obviously this takes time, months or years.

Telling them just to stop months or years of repeat behaviour that goes against their now natural urges is just not the answer. They need 24/7 watch really, but who has time for that?

Robisere

Disregarding the addiction advice and information, the hospital spells, the treatment and the whole sorry situation, one thing is abundantly clear. From your description of your mum's appearnce, she quite obviously has at least advanced Cirrhosis of the liver with possible other organ damage and may eventually lead to immune system collapse . This will now be at the stage where it is hardly treatable with any success, and therefore I suspect, terminal. I am sorry to tell you this, but I have experience of this with someone close and I know the results. There is a point at which there simply is no road back: the damage done is irreversible, and for some even a transplant is just delaying tactics.

Rehabilitation, even if your mum wanted it, will only delay the inevitable and I do not think it will be long. It may be harsh, but when the end does come, it will be a great relief for you all, although you may not think you will grieve, grief will be for the complete waste of a life and its effect upon those who should have been loved by her.

I feel very, very sorry for all of you in this situation, but you seem to be a lady who has used the events and troubles of your younger life, to make you strong. I wish you a long and healthy life with your own husband and family, you deserve it.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

Carl31 wrote: »

I think this is what people fail to grasp. Such chemicals cause hormonal releases that mimic natural body responses. Telling an addict not to drink is like stopping yourself from drinking water when thirsty, or trying to stop the desire to have sex

Of course these things can be done, but an addiction cant be controlled by saying 'im not going to do that today' if it was that easy, there would be no addicts

Bottom line is, addiction is usually spawned from another matter, such as abuse or depression. Judging an addict by the actions they choose now ignores their hnderlying issue completely, which may not even be there fault

There is the physical side, yes. Which can and is treated. The depression can be treated (assuming they don't refuse pills because it interferes with their drinking - which is common for that and for some antibiotics).


But what of the behavioural side? The side where somebody comes out of detox and rehab and then, despite being absolutely clean, decides to use again? AA has a 90% failure rate. Other treatment modalities aren't much better. So treating it as an illness (outside the physical element) isn't working.

An addict may choose to use the excuse 'I wasn't treated right' to justify their choice, to absolve themselves of responsibility - but that keeps them as helpless little loves, unable to resist that big nasty bottle that jumps out the supermarket shelf and chases them down the street, instead of being the fully grown adult who, in full knowledge that it will cost them far more that it can ever give them, chooses to buy and drink it even when they have no chemical addiction.


Fact is, being !!!!ed feels quite nice. It's nicer than the boring bits of life like doing the washing up or standing in the rain for a bus. Which is why they do it. Because it feels better than normal life.

Person_one

Jojo_the_Tightfisted wrote: »

Fact is, being !!!!ed feels quite nice. It's nicer than the boring bits of life like doing the washing up or standing in the rain for a bus. Which is why they do it. Because it feels better than normal life.

Not when you've got bleeding varices.

There has to be more to it than that at this stage, at the stage where it is actually killing you, and soon.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

Person_one wrote: »

Not when you've got bleeding varices.

There has to be more to it than that at this stage, at the stage where it is actually killing you, and soon.

Well, the person I've got in mind at this moment doesn't actually appear to have portal hypertension, but he's certainly got cirrhosis (Child A) but no focal lesions, gallstones, haemochromatosis and an elevated CA19-9 - but he's still drinking even when he's not physically dependent upon it. Although that isn't often, as soon as he's finished withdrawal, he manufactures some excuse or argument to justify it again, drinking repeatedly in large quantities until he's fully chemically dependent again.



I believe his latest excuse were he actually to be caught with can in hand (after denying that the can is there, then going on to accusing the other person to be just as bad because they're a bit overweight or because they don't drink, they're projecting, and then that he's forced to drink because that person is making them so miserable, and that it would never have happened if that person hadn't breathed the wrong way five years ago, Daddy didn't love him as much as his little brother, blah, blah, blah....) is that 'Don't you know - I'M DYING!!!!! DYING!!!!!!'.



But if someone were to point out that his prognosis is actually quite good in the great scheme of things, compared to somebody bleeding out from varices, with encephalopathy, with Korsakoff's, living in a faeces smeared pit, and Child C rating, he'd take it as 'it's not that bad, then? Oh good. I'll just pop out for a little walk......' and he's off yet again. On the basis that it's okay, it won't hurt as he's not that ill after all.



It's a horrible condition. But addicts are invariably, whining, manipulative, deceitful and positively sociopathic in their pursuit of what they want. The person outside of that may be very sweet, kind and funny and wonderful to be around when they are sober - but once they decide that they want a drink/hit, it's all thrown out of the window.

Which is the greatest tragedy, that there could be a nice person underneath that they won't allow out.

bluebiro

Jojo_the_Tightfisted wrote: »

There is the physical side, yes. Which can and is treated. The depression can be treated (assuming they don't refuse pills because it interferes with their drinking - which is common for that and for some antibiotics).


But what of the behavioural side? The side where somebody comes out of detox and rehab and then, despite being absolutely clean, decides to use again? AA has a 90% failure rate. Other treatment modalities aren't much better. So treating it as an illness (outside the physical element) isn't working.

An addict may choose to use the excuse 'I wasn't treated right' to justify their choice, to absolve themselves of responsibility - but that keeps them as helpless little loves, unable to resist that big nasty bottle that jumps out the supermarket shelf and chases them down the street, instead of being the fully grown adult who, in full knowledge that it will cost them far more that it can ever give them, chooses to buy and drink it even when they have no chemical addiction.


Fact is, being !!!!ed feels quite nice. It's nicer than the boring bits of life like doing the washing up or standing in the rain for a bus. Which is why they do it. Because it feels better than normal life.

I am an addict and alcoholic with 3 years clean and sober. A couple of points on this thread and this post.

1. AA does have a 90% failure rate overall but for the people I see who do work a solid program there is no failure rate at all, I go to 5 meetings a week and in the first year it was 7 at least, these are all self supported with no help from the NHS or any other source.
Treating it as the disease that it is does work and can be seen to work when done correctly. I agree with not mollycoddling and also that every alcoholic needs to face the fact that they drank and nobody forced them too. (but would you tell a heart attack or stroke victim that they were at fault because they started eating cheese,)
2. In my group there are no helpless little loves, that is not in fact AA but another group which follows the AA steps and traditions. As part of the treatment facing your past and what each individual has done is a must, personally I feel I must make any situation mine otherwise there is no way I can change it in the future even if all I did was be somewhere.
3.Being !!!!ed does not feel nice, believe me I hope you never experience the sheer terror of full blown alcoholism, not been able to live with drink and not able to live in reality without it, I never want to feel helpless like that again.

I believe every addict and alcoholic deserves the chance to get well as I have seen many 'hopeless' cases become some of the best members of society. If you would like to read a little more about free services and personal stories please visit living sober.

timeou

Thanks to all that took the time to post, I was out last night so didn't reply. I think the poster that said it is probably irreversible I suspect is correct as her treatment seems to be very minimal, just fluids from what I can see which is improving her appearance a little as she's no longer dehydrated. Also the yellow has left her hands now so I don't know whether that's her liver working or the drugs doing this.

I'm preparing myself for the worst, I will grieve naturally but for all the life she chose not to enjoy.

timeou

Update.

Looks like she'll be discharged soon. Shes still extremely weak but managed the stairs and can walk unaided. She's been an utter pig to the nurses and every one else who has tried to help her. I visited yesterday - its a two hour round trip and I was given the cold shoulder the whole time so I wash my hands of her.

I know she'll go home and not push herself to get physically better though - she'll lay in bed and shout for my father every 5 minutes, demand alcohol and mentally abuse my father all over again - I explained all of this to the ward sister yesterday - broke down in tears - she was lovely but said that if my mother will not accept help there's nothing anyone can do.

My father privately would want her to go into a home I know but won't actually admit it. I told him he needs to stand firm and speak to a social worker and say he won't have her home. He has visited twice a day every day for the 3 weeks she's been in for no thanks - just demands from her - why he allows her to treat him this way I will never understand.

Its a form of domestic abuse but just because its not violence (mental) he doesnt seem to see the situation for what it is.

The hospital said that all the support is there for her to give up if needs be - and in the case of my father then he needs to put himself first and leave her which isnt realistically going to happen.

Im afraid she'll kill him with the stress of caring for her and her demands but unless he man's up and refuses to take it from her theres not much I can do as in the past If ive stepped in to rip a strip off her in the past he will give me an earful and make me out to be the bad guy for 'starting'.

I gotta just leave them get on with it.

Pollycat

Sometimes you just have to take a step back from a situation for the sake of your own health and sanity.

I'd try hard not to be drawn back into it.

As you say, if your Dad won't do what is necessary to help him, there's not a lot you can do.
If you're really sure that he won't kick off the social worker process, you just have to leave him to live with it and hope it's not too long before he realises that this woman really needs the sort of help he can't give her.

Take care of yourself and your own family.

marisco_2

timeou wrote: »

Update. Looks like she'll be discharged soon. Shes still extremely weak but managed the stairs and can walk unaided. She's been an utter pig to the nurses and every one else who has tried to help her. I visited yesterday - its a two hour round trip and I was given the cold shoulder the whole time so I wash my hands of her.

Sending you a big hug. I know from bitter experience how hard but necessary it is to take this step. You are 100% doing the right thing, dont doubt that.

I just hope that your father can respect himself enough to do the same. Your mum needs professional care now and to not continue to emotionally abuse a man who loves her. I fear she does not have it within her to recognise this and that this inability and clouded vision could eventually lead to her downfall.

It is clear you are very worried about your dad but feel unable to raise these concerns with him face to face, for fear of how he would react. It may help you to write everything down in a letter, pretty much as you have said it in your post actually, to let him know how you are feeling. Then you wont have any regrets about important things being left unsaid. We can all only do so much to help loved ones. However upsetting and frustrating that may be.

Take care of yourself OP.