Brighton Marina

murrayfan_2

^ no need to get stroppy! . I'll put it another way then - yes, I believe what they're saying, but don't private land owners have any rights as to state who can and who cannot use their car park and/or special spaces?. Like most owners of private property can make stipulations about things?. And if their notices by disabled bays are illegal, why aren't they made to remove them?. And lastly, again, can I report my local private car park owners to the police for having such notices in their car park?.

murrayfan_2

I'm just finding it hard to believe that these 'disabled bays' are absolutely worthless and can be used by anyone, disabled or not, and that all these illegal notices can be just left there without any comeback on the parking companies.

Stroma

murrayfan wrote: »

^ no need to get stroppy!. I'll put it another way then - yes, I believe what they're saying, but don't private land owners have any rights as to state who can and who cannot use their car park and/or special spaces?. Like most owners of private property can make stipulations about things?. And if their notices by disabled bays are illegal, why aren't they made to remove them?. And lastly, again, can I report my local private car park owners to the police for having such notices in their car park?.

I'm not getting stroppy, I'm getting a little tired answering the same thing over and again to you. Yes private landowners have rights, but most of these are retail parks and supermarkets, do you seriously expect them to ban customers from their car parks ?

No matter what they are customers if they are using the facilities, whether its just browsing, shopping or using the toilet, there can be no abuse as they are the clients. As there can be no loss the fees these parking companies are giving are unenforceable penalties.

Just search VCS -v- Ibbotson for further information on this.

Stroma

murrayfan wrote: »

I'm just finding it hard to believe that these 'disabled bays' are absolutely worthless and can be used by anyone, disabled or not, and that all these illegal notices can be just left there without any comeback on the parking companies.

The notices can say anything they want they are not illegal, like trespassers will be shot, that is not illegal to put up, what would be illegal is acting on it. You need to understand that many things are illegal technically and in breach of rules and regulations, it doesn't mean the police will get involved as most of it is civil law.

In terms of saying this parking space is for blue badge holders only, that is a breach of the Equality Act, if its acted upon then its illegal as its a breach, the recourse would be the company involved remedying the situation, or possibly a claim is made to the small claims, as its a civil matter the police will not be interested as they are there mainly for criminal matters.

murrayfan_2

Stroma wrote: »

I'm not getting stroppy, I'm getting a little tired answering the same thing over and again to you. Yes private landowners have rights, but most of these are retail parks and supermarkets, do you seriously expect them to ban customers from their car parks ?

No matter what they are customers if they are using the facilities, whether its just browsing, shopping or using the toilet, there can be no abuse as they are the clients. As there can be no loss the fees these parking companies are giving are unenforceable penalties.

Just search VCS -v- Ibbotson for further information on this.

I wasn't so much thinking of supermarkets but of private pay and display car parks. For example, in my local small town the council have just made the main street into an area where basically nobody can park atall (double yellows and double kerb marks). This leaves disabled people with ONE option now, the only nearby car park. This is privately owned and has just been put into the control of one of these scam companies (I noticed today). There are two disabled spaces, just two. So whilst I see what you're saying and I feel angry that people are being harassed by these illegal penalties, I also feel angry on behalf of blue badge holders who have nowhere to park in the town. If there's no way of these car parking companies discriminating (legally) about who actually uses these bays, then why not make half the car park into disabled bays?. In fact presumably by their own immoral scam logic they;d make more money doing this and at least blue badge holders would have somewhere to park.

Coupon-mad

murrayfan wrote: »

I wasn't so much thinking of supermarkets but of private pay and display car parks. For example, in my local small town the council have just made the main street into an area where basically nobody can park atall (double yellows and double kerb marks). This leaves disabled people with ONE option now, the only nearby car park. This is privately owned and has just been put into the control of one of these scam companies (I noticed today). There are two disabled spaces, just two.

So whilst I see what you're saying and I feel angry that people are being harassed by these illegal penalties, I also feel angry on behalf of blue badge holders who have nowhere to park in the town. If there's no way of these car parking companies discriminating (legally) about who actually uses these bays, then why not make half the car park into disabled bays?. In fact presumably by their own immoral scam logic they;d make more money doing this and at least blue badge holders would have somewhere to park.

I would feel angry on behalf of the disabled shoppers as well (not just the BB holders but anyone who has the medical need to use those bays).

But your anger seems misdirected, IMHO.

Whoever is responsible for the car park (and I don't mean the PPC, the monkey, I mean the organ grinder) have a duty under the Equality Act 2010 to make reasonable adjustments. So, if they have 50 spaces in the car park then just two disabled bays is generally (probably!) not considered a reasonable enough adjustment. It would be OK in a 20 space car park though, as I think the guideline % is 6 - 7%. I am not certain about this figure recently as I read it a few years ago re the DDA (pre Equality Act), but it's a guideline. What you have described could be challenged, complained about - and changed if it's unreasonable.

But the Police wouldn't step in over that % any more than they would step in over the misleading signs. Of course not, they are not crimes but civil disputes (breach of the Equality Act is more of a Trading Standards or EHRC sort of issue).

EHRC definition of disabled, you'll notice, doesn't include having any sort of permit, because there are so many 'disabled' types & needs and so many possibilities of what could be discrimination. There's no requirement to have a Blue Badge in a private car park any more than you'd need to show a white stick to get a braille copy of a leaflet in a public-facing service. But the EHRC are the sort of organisation who can help to force change where disabled people are disadvantaged - so you could contact them and see what course of action they suggest.

On private land it's up to the owner/occupier to set up the car park as they see fit (we agree with you on that too) and if they breach laws they may get away with it for a while, could be for a very long time. The only comeback they could expect would be a legal challenge by a disabled person, perhaps. Either because a BB holder couldn't park because two bays is woefully inadequate in a big/busy/hospital car park (people have apparently had out-of-court settlements for this) or because, maybe, that a disabled person has been discriminated against in the way we say. Such as having relevant 'protected characteristics' that legally allow them to use a disabled bay on private land but being harassed and intimidated by the 'monkeys' after a fast buck who like to pretend the BB scheme is there for them to use/abuse.

murrayfan_2

^ am grasping all this but it is quite complicated. For instance I looked up the case Stroma mentioned, and that seemed to indicate that penalties are enforceable with the landowners permission.

I already complained once to the owners of the car park I mentioned as they only had had ONE disabled bay, this was after they redesigned some spaces last year, previously there were 3 or 4. They put this one bay in a very awkward spot in the furthest part of the car park, too!. After I complained they added one more space, this time near to the shops. I would say there's around 40 spaces altogether in this car park, it's not very big but it's very important as it's so central.

I do understand (now) that the BB scheme wasn't meant for, and isn't 'enforceable' on private land, but what I'm trying to find out now is what rights land owners do have. For instance I used to own a shop, and was quite within my rights to refuse to serve, or to eject certain people under certain circumstances. So I wondered if it was entirely acceptable for a landowner to decide to adopt the BB scheme, and then give permission for the 'heavies' to check/issue penalties?.

I realise that the definition of disabled doesn't mean 'having a blue badge', and I'm definitely not trying to discriminate against people. I just want to stand up for the rights of genuinely immobile people who are finding it very hard to get out because of the parking problems.

Stroma

There is scope for a council to adopt a private car park, it would then be patrolled by council wardens and penalty charge notices could be issued. But I don't think to many councils have been asked to do that.

Coupon-mad

IMHO not 'entirely acceptable' to adopt the BB scheme but in practice that is what most private car parks have done - in good faith, funnily enough. I expect most of them believe they have done so for the right reasons - the landowners I mean, not the monkeys (we know why they have adopted the scheme, to make scamming easy).

They can 'adopt' the BB scheme (no-one will stop them) but they are open to a legal challenge because clearly to then allow a third party scammer to harass disabled people who do not happen to have that badge, is unlawful. And it would be difficult, IMHO, for the landowner to prove that their actions have been 'reasonable' if they have not given due consideration to their duty to all disabled visitors and have then compounded this by not instructing their agents properly about cancelling fake PCNs issued to anyone who can show they had a legal right to park there.

The worst situations IMHO are where the scammers go for obviously disabled drivers, such as when they see the person get into a wheelchair and then issue a fake PCN because the BB is upside down or missing. Now that is a clear breach of the Act, disability discrimination without a doubt.

I think it is fairly 'acceptable' for a private landowner to 'adopt' the BB scheme if they do NOT have any PPC on site. E.g. if they put signs up in an attempt to ensure that disabled people can park there, and to dissuade lazy idiots, that's a good thing - and if challenged, could possibly be shown to be a reasonable attempt to comply with the Act. It's the addition of the PPC to the equation that then causes real harassment and upset.

murrayfan wrote: »

As an aside, I noticed today that one of our local private car parks is now restricting the use of their paltry 2 disabled bays to 2 hours, the rest of the car park is unlimited, and everyone pays the same. Is that also illegal?.

Yes most definitely 'illegal' (unlawful may be a better word for such breaches). But again, the people to fight such things would not be the Police.

Could be Trading Standards, could be EHRC, or (dare I say it) DMUK - but from what we have seen, they only go after Councils because, despite being a self-styled 'disabled drivers' charity' they are known to be in the pockets of PPCs.

There is a tangled web here. And the PPCs have friends in high places too, there's a huge amount of money at stake here so the richest PPCs do pull certain strings.

:mad:

notanewuser

Cst101 wrote: »

No not really amazing as the casino attracts expensive cars that the owners do not want damaged hence using the child spaces.

I was there 3 weeks ago.

The casino has its own carpark.

We parked on the 7th floor in a normal space and transported 2 adults, 1 toddler, 1 pram loaded with stuff, suitcase, trunki and other bags to the 6th floor boardwalk using the built in ramps (plenty wide enough as they're designed for cars).