Brighton Marina

Stroma

murrayfan wrote: »

Obviously. But I take it that not every instance of ticketing was done when 'someone in a wheelchair' was using the space, or was seen using the space?. And judging from what you yourself have said, the nil tax disc wouldn't be necessary in these cases - it might not be the disabled person's car for example. Again, appeals saying 'I'm disabled' would appear relevant, but you've all been telling me that this isn't relevant, because the penalties aren't legal in the first place. This is exactly why I'm confused.

They are not legal, but how will the company know they are in breach until you tell them? A badge is not needed to park there, but reasonable adjustment is a fundamental part of the Equality Act, if an appeal is turned down say because of an overstay then that could be deemed as discrimination because no adjustment has been made for the disabled person.

Coupon-mad

murrayfan wrote: »

You actually said that if someone appealed they would need to show they had a right to use those bays.

Yes! Because if they go to the trouble of appealing and actually want it cancelled (or fancy suing) they should show that there was a disability issue. Then if the PPC doesn't cancel it they are breaching disability law as they are then knowingly harassing a disabled person. At the very least then the fake PCN could be cancelled at POPLA stage due to this, and indeed the motorist would then be able to sue for damages if they want, as well.

Not sure how much clearer you want us to explain all this?

Coupon-mad

murrayfan wrote: »

But making a disabled bay highly visible, with a picture of a wheelchair painted in it and bit yellow marks painted round it, is highlighting a disability too.

Oh come on...that's OBVIOUSLY to make the provision easily identifiable to the people it's there for - and to comply with the legislation which says that a retailer/service has to 'make reasonable adjustments'. It's a visible 'adjustment' and it wouldn't be any use to people if they didn't make it obvious!

Comparatively, in large Supermarkets the tills that have a 'hearing loop' have a sign up as well - same reason of course - to TELL PEOPLE WHO NEED IT that it's there! Not to highlight their disability!

murrayfan wrote: »

and my 'problem' is that when I go out with my disabled husband we have a lot of trouble finding a disabled bay to park in, because they seem to be used (in some instances) by people who aren't disabled.

We know that's the issue that brought you to this thread.

And yes, it can be a problem but not necessarily any fault by the drivers parking there. Remember that could be you one day - if the Blue Badge falls down as your OH gets out of the car and you don't notice - you and OH would then be judged by others as 'not disabled' and you could get a fake PCN in seconds even if the PPC 'Monkey' sees your OH get out and the disability is clear.

If a lack of disabled spaces is a huge problem that happens all the time in your locality then - as I said in a previous post to you - your wrath should be aimed at the retailer/owner/occupier responsible for the car park. Tell them in a formal letter that there are insufficient disabled bays for the need and show them some evidence of your issue (diary of when it happened, etc). Tell them the % of bays is clearly not sufficient and so breaches the Equality Act, and what are they going to do about it? Explain if you like, that you know using a private parking company is not the answer because the issue is NOT a Blue Badge one (the scheme being not applicable on private land and potentially discriminatory against other disabled people with a protected condition and need to park in a disabled bay).

Tell them that a general response about 'policing the bays' will not be satisfactory for you because issuing fake fines to people who may well be 'non-Blue-Badge disabled' does not solve the underlying problem of a lack of provision sufficient to meet the local need.

More likely in your case, than lots of lazy non-disabled people being 'in the way' is that those motorists did have reason to park there (you cannot know, and most people would not abuse spaces like this, we know this as we talk about parking issues every day here and threads like this one are soooo rare). More likely that the problem is simply that there are not enough disabled bays for the need there. And if you never tell the powers that be that there's a problem, how can they be expected to address the issue?

Customer-facing services/retailers/landowners have a duty to review their disabled provisions and act upon any issues raised, so raise one!

murrayfan_2

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Yes! Because if they go to the trouble of appealing and actually want it cancelled (or fancy suing) they should show that there was a disability issue. Then if the PPC doesn't cancel it they are breaching disability law as they are knowingly harassing a disabled person. At the very least then the fake PCN could be cancelled at POPLA stage due to this, and indeed the motorist would then be able to sue for damages if they want, as well.

Not sure how much clearer you want us to explain all this?

and yet you told the OP to ignore the penalty, even though he isn't disabled

murrayfan_2

I fully intend to direct my 'wrath' at the local private car park owners, but I wanted to be clear on the law. Which I'm still not. Because as far as I can see, the penalties can be legitimate if the landowner sanctions them via the car park management company they've appointed.

I actually wish that penalties were completely legitimate because I think that the blue badge is the clearest way to show a 'need' for a disabled bay. If people with a blue badge used those bays properly, displaying their badge, then there couldn't be any confusion, or room for penalties to be issued.

I'm not showing anyone any 'wrath' here - but I was making a valid point, there is positive discrimination, e.g marking a bay as 'disabled', and there is negative discrimination, e.g stopping a disabled person from doing something just because of their disability.

I will stop posting on this thread now as it's obviously pointless to continue, but this use of 'we', 'us' and 'what we think' is a little cliquey you know.

Stroma

murrayfan wrote: »

and yet you told the OP to ignore the penalty, even though he isn't disabled

Its not a penalty though, and no private parking company can legally punish anyone for parking in a disabled bay or any bay on private land, they are not the council! And Coupon , myself and others told the OP not to park in disabled bays unless they have a need, the alleged breach of contract is punishable by a £100 charge, or any charge that doesn't reflect loss, there is no loss to anyone if they are customers.

Coupon-mad

murrayfan wrote: »

and yet you told the OP to ignore the penalty, even though he isn't disabled

Of course they should ignore the scam but we never give people the impression that it's OK to park in a disabled bay - quite the opposite. We told them off for parking there as well!

Stroma

murrayfan wrote: »

I fully intend to direct my 'wrath' at the local private car park owners, but I wanted to be clear on the law. Which I'm still not. Because as far as I can see, the penalties can be legitimate if the landowner sanctions them via the car park management company they've appointed.

The law is quite clear, no private company can penalise anyone

murrayfan wrote: »

I actually wish that penalties were completely legitimate because I think that the blue badge is the clearest way to show a 'need' for a disabled bay. If people with a blue badge used those bays properly, displaying their badge, then there couldn't be any confusion, or room for penalties to be issued.

You may wish for that, but its not going to happen, the reason is that private car parks are unregulated, the only way it can be regulated is for the council to take over the land, and put a parking order on the land. Again no company can issue penalties!!

murrayfan wrote: »

I will stop posting on this thread now as it's obviously pointless to continue, but this use of 'we', 'us' and 'what we think' is a little cliquey you know.

You may think so, but can't you accept that 'we' know about this issue more than yourself? We give advice that is correct, I suggest you try other forums if you wish, pepipoo is a good one, you can ask the users there about this issue.

Coupon-mad

murrayfan wrote: »

I fully intend to direct my 'wrath' at the local private car park owners, but I wanted to be clear on the law. Which I'm still not. Because as far as I can see, the penalties can be legitimate if the landowner sanctions them via the car park management company they've appointed.

I actually wish that penalties were completely legitimate because I think that the blue badge is the clearest way to show a 'need' for a disabled bay. If people with a blue badge used those bays properly, displaying their badge, then there couldn't be any confusion, or room for penalties to be issued.

I'm not showing anyone any 'wrath' here - but I was making a valid point, there is positive discrimination, e.g marking a bay as 'disabled', and there is negative discrimination, e.g stopping a disabled person from doing something just because of their disability.

I will stop posting on this thread now as it's obviously pointless to continue, but this use of 'we', 'us' and 'what we think' is a little cliquey you know.

I think you should stop posting about this too as it all seems to have gone right over your head, you are still calling the fake PCNs 'penalties', you still think they can be 'legit' if the landowner allows it and - the most shocking of all - despite all the info from the Equality Act you still think it's only people like your husband with a mobility issue who should be 'allowed' to use a disabled bay provision.

I really do give up because your view is biased against other needful disabled people and you have completely disregarded their needs with that latest post, IMHO. I cannot stand it when usually elderly* Blue Badge Holders act as if they are the only ones with a disability need - and you have come across just like that I am afraid, despite all the information you've been given.






*no apology, it's true, the worst bigots against young disabled or people suffering from invisible disabilities are old men with Blue Badges, IMHO.

I used to see it a lot when I worked in a Disability Advice Centre, grumpy old gits thinking they could jump the queue for advice and should be the only ones to park outside in our handful of disabled bays (all our bays were marked as such), because of their BB, even though ALL our visitors had that need! And then refused to listen if you politely told them that...

murrayfan_2

I'm 42, my husband is 62, FYI. I have a disability myself but don't consider it affects my mobility, not all disabilities do (though it does disqualify me from me driving - I don't see that as discriminatory by the way). I do appreciate the information given here (even though some of it misleading and confusing) - but not the patronising attitudes or suggestions for using other forums, I'll use whichever forum I choose thankyou very much Stroma.