Say No to 0870!

Victors_Bruvver

Dare I mention this on the night of the France v England match?

I was looking through some of my wife's French magazines (don't ask) and whilst I cannot read French (I just look athe pictures and the advertisments!) I could not help noticing that I think they may have stricter consumer laws when it comes to these non geographic telephone numbers.

For instance on the magazine I have here, Prima, there is an ad for a subscription to the magazine and also a drop out card. Both highlight the ng number within a indigo (dark blue) coloured logo with the wording that says "Number Indigo then the number" and underneath in smaller letters the cost of the call ie 0.15e TTC/MN.

I have also seen one for "Number Vert" which is their equivalent of the 0800/0500 number plus another for a another tariff which I cannot remember right now.

Is this not something we can get Ofcom to copy? At least if it is clearly marked and highlighted in such a way as this example is, it may show a little clearer who is charging what. Maybe?

System

Loopytush.
Wow, your posts get longer and longer, 'methinks you do protest too much?' (with apologies to Will).

{part of this post deleted by martin - please be nice to other moneysavers - i have also deleted the section it referred to - in order to get everything back on topic - but i did aask this to return to topic  - sorry to have to do this but some of the analogies were unnecessary}

Back on the original topic, I agree completely with Martin aims, let's have a campaign.

System

Well, surely we have already commenced a part-campaign with the submission of a greater than normal number of responses to Ofcom for their consultation and separate complaints. I would also point out that I am getting an increasing number of hits on the protest site, which must indicate the interest of the public in this. I really believe that a great many people just do not really understand yet what is going on and the levels of just over 4 p per minute which large companies with high call volumes are making from keeping them on line for as long as possible with 0870 numbers. Since the sites are now coming up increasingly well on search engines more people are learning for the first time the true extent of this scam. In general it seems when people do understand this scam they get quite cross about it!

However, I do not feel that any campaign on the basis that Martin has expressed it would achieve anything. There are only two ways in which this scam may be addressed equitably. Either the particular telco carrier's normal call rates (LOcal or National) have got to be enforced for all these NGN calls, not BT's old higher charge rates, which then means the Premiums paid should be a percentage of the carrier's charge rate NOT A FIXED AMOUNT per minute; or revenue sharing has got to be banned completely as it was temporarily by Oftel for 07 PNS numbers. Any companies which want revenue from incoming calls should be using 09 numbers. No one would object to that.

In the meantime write to Edward Leigh MP (Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee) who has been looking at this issue, write to your MP and write to your MEP to complain.

Loopytush

Although I would support any such move I would advise never to use the word "SCAM" in any form when referring to 0870 this is leading people open to Slander (or whatever the name of written version is, hey its early in the morning).

Even though some companies may be keeping the caller online without them knowing the call charges they are "BY LAW" not doing anything wrong and the number naming is down to the governing bodies.

I can confirm that one company that were misuing a number range (070) and were constantly fined by ICSTIS for minor issues with the service, were called thieves and there service was a scam. As the number range did not require call charges to be displayed they successfully sued a individual and that persons solicitors.

The case did go to court and the JUdge stated
"Although the service may be imoral, COMPANY X has broken no guidelines. The issue here is that the defendant called a number that they did not know the calling charge for without checking with their phone company. Therefore the conclusion can only be the defendant never used common sense"

Well it was something along those lines, it was a few years ago.

As stated by someone (about french numbers) the best move would be to get the 0870 range to carry a warning. I can confirm that this has been discussed previously with what was OFTEL (i beleive). The problem most complaints have is that the complaining parties are calling the numbers "PREMIUM RATE". The definition of premium rate in telco world is a FIXED higher rate. 0870 is not fixed as telcos charge different rates for calling them, therefore the numbers cannot be premium rate and the callers should check what they are charged for making the calls before doing so.

In a way there is sense to this I mean if you look at premium rate numbers they have to carry the call charges simply because the charge is fixed and will not change from telco to telco.

PUTTING IN HYPOTHOSIES (I know i cant spell and probably the wrong word anyway)

When you are driving down the road there are speed limits posted (premium rate numbers). Where there are no speed limits posted, do you put your foot down or do you take caution and stick to reasonable speed? (Do you just call the number or check what the calling charge is?)

Loopytush

drrdf3:

Good comments but just a couple of floors

1) The word SCAM as explained in my last post.

2) The revenue payout dependant on the carriers charges. I have many times had to explain to users that BT etc have requested funds back as per XYC charges.

3) PNS services. The revenue has been banned on end users only. They have deemed that supplying companies may still make revenue due to nature of the numbers and such services with them (FAX to email, voice to email etc) as they are providing and have to pay for non standard services in most cases.

4) Making companies use the 09 numbers would simply cause public outcry. This number range is clearly known as a FIXED premium range. I think the idea of 087 numbers carrying a warning that the call may cost more than standard calls would be the best approach. As stated (apart from 0871) the 08 range call charges does fluctuate depending on the carrier. therefore a warning would entice people to check the calling charge with their telco.

cebolla

I think the whole idea is great and am particullary upset when companies lie about whether they have geo/freephone numbers and wondered if they are allowed to do this.
I also wondered if anyone new of a WAP portal to the SAYNOTO0870.com site allowing the same service on the move, although i have saved the numbers i need while online.

I am interested in the above comment which states that if everyone was to SAYNOTO0870, that it would lead to unemployment.

Could this and other negative effects to the UK economy arise from all the moneysaving tips listed here.

If everyone used the mobile overide trick, then the networks would lose profit have to make cutbacks (and in turn the government would lose out on revenue).

If everyone took there car to a council MOT testing station, there would be less work for mechanics,again less tax revenue, although the councils would make more (possibly helping to reduce council tax?)

Same with Biodiesel and so on.

I saw quite a heated debate on this in the petrol prices thread and wondered if anyone new any more or if there was a specific thread.

Keep up the good work.

System

Loopytush,

The sort of case which you cite is where there was specific slander or libel against a particular named individual or company. To refer to the whole of the business of NGNs being used as disguised or covert Premium lines as a scam, abuse, rip-off, racket, confidence trick or scandal is not libellous nor slanderous, since it is not directed at any individual or company. It is a true generic description of what is being done and the clandestine approach of the whole gambit, cleverly contrived to fool those who do not yet comprehend how it works. A large company receiving a call volume of say even 300, 000 0870 calls per annum at 4 p per minute with call centre queueing and all the best extrapolation tricks can have an annual revenue just from this of more than £360, 000. That's a whole load of money for doing nothing!

I quite understand that since you are concerned with the business currently of selling capacity within this arena you take the position which you do. That is fine and there is nothing wrong in that. Effectively you are exploiting a legal loophole which exists at present because the NTNS has never been enforced properly due to weak and inefectual regulation. The only proper solution to this problem, as I have mentioned before, is for the NTNS to be enforced as it was originally planned and defined. It is Ofcom who are (and Oftel before them), for reasons best known to them (although others can have their suspicions about the true reasons) continuously refusing to regulate according to the original intent and structure of the NTNS, and they will probably not do so until there is pressure put on them from a higher level, despite their sham consultations, in which they have not taken any account of consumers views or interests and specifically claim that "hardly any consumers ever complain about this" abuse.

However there are some encouraging signs that for certain political reasons there is a growing realisation that something will have to change, (particularly as more consumers become aware of what is actually going on) and it is increasingly possible that some pressure may be put on Ofcom to take some action, although it is not yet clear whether this will be sufficiently vigorous. In the meantime the more consumers who complain to Ofcom and to their MP, MEP and Edward Leigh MP, the more likely it is that something will be done. It would probably be a good idea to complain to Michael Howard MP too, since if he receives enough complaints he may be able to make political capital from it, putting pressure on the government to take some action.

Loopytush

I totally agree, but it still has to be worded very carefully. Not all companies use these tatics (and even those who actually have the right to do so). Believe me when I say be carefull how things are worded.

For instance saying some comapnies are using the "SCAM" would be safe but if you were to say the current rating of the numbers is the same then you are actually showing liable to the governing bodies and in such half the damn goverment.

You maybe be correct with regards my opions and interest, however please do not label me the same some companies are being labelled. I have never used any underhand tatics to make further revenue and I for one would be happy with the re-classification of these numbers.

That is simply because I know it would not make a blind bit of difference to industry. Sure at fisrt the public will stop or use them a lot less. However the final outcome would lead to the businesses winning in the end.

You stop 087 calls or rename them premium

• market prices for consumer goods will increase
• Call centres will continue to be outsourced to such places as India leading to unemployment and a deteriation in customer service quality
• Due to the above there would be further tax rises

You relabel them as business numbers and effect the call volumes and You will either have the same effect as above or in a smart business world (which is more than likely to happen to save the business ecconomy

• It will become regulation for all business to use one
• With which your choice to call them will non existant as you will not be able to find any legitimate business supplying a normal or freephone number.

Even if every person that felt that they were being "SCAMMED" took each and every company to court eventually you would get the same response:

"If you dont like them dont use them, after all the companies do not hide the costs of the calls they are freely available from each and every ones telco. Thats why the action should just have a warning to check the call prices with there telco. You cannot (apart from 0871) state the call charges for calling 08 ranges as they are dependant on the telco and situation including LCR & time of day etc.

Please dont think I am just supporting the numbers because I have involvement as I have involvement with others such as 0800 etc. I am just being realistic, and in my views I am able to see past the red mist of fury and see the outcome of such protest.

If you think that 100's thousands of people complaining about a number range will make a difference that we can all benefit from, then put my name at the top of the list. However these numbers earn millions of pounds for the goverment and hey they will spend it on such things as wars that have nothing to do with us that cost billions of pounds and thousands of lives, and that is with millions of people protesting.

On a lighter note I would like to thank everyone for their input whether realstic or not, as we all have views. Oh an by the way if any of you are self employed or are business owners I know a man that can do good deals on 0800 numbers......lol

jonbee_2

Sorry to interupt but I'd just like to say a big thank you to Donnie for the info supplied. I think I've zapped the rogue dialler but just to be doubly sure I' ve barred future premium calls. All done on the talk talk free 0870 as explained earlier.

System

Happy to help.

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