Flight delay compensation, all other non-EU airlines

JPears

bumped up as down on page 6...

Carol_B

I am currently fighting this with Virgin who told me the same as my flight was delayed on the connection outside the EU I wasn't eligible. However I have sent a copy of this ( can't post link, not allowed on here) To Bott online solicitors. I got it from travel sort.com a travel blog. :
Is EU 261/2004 compensation owed when the US connecting flight is delayed? TravelSort reader Elliot commented on my post Getting United to Pay EU Compensation for a Flight Delay:
"I'm wondering if I can claim EU compensation as our connecting flight was delayed. We were a party of 8 (4 children) and flew United Airlines, Heathrow -> Washington -> Orlando. The Heathrow to Washington flight actually arrived early, however after boarding the 12.30 pm Washington flight and getting to the end of the runway we got told there was a technical fault with the plane.
We spent an hour on the runway before returning back and after a couple of hours got told the flight was cancelled and we'd been booked on the 10.15 pm flight...Anyway 10 hour delay, and total door to door delay of around 29 hours, but as the delay was in the US can we claim that we were actually traveling from London to Orlando via Washington...or will United claim it was just Washington to Orlando that was delayed and not valid for an EU claim?"
This is a great question, and I wouldn't be surprised if this scenario has occurred to other readers. First, I'll recap the eligibility requirements for EU 261/2004 compensation to apply:
Your flight is departing from an airport located in an EU Member State; or
Traveling to an EU Member State on an airline based in an EU Member State
You have a confirmed reservation on the flight and arrived in time for check-in
The delay must be 3 hours or more than the scheduled arrival time
Note that this means that EU compensation is NEVER due for flights TO Europe on a United flight (or AA, Delta, or any other non-EU member airline); it only applies to flights FROM the EU if you're flying United or another U.S. or non-EU carrier. In this case, Elliot and his family were departing the EU from London LHR on United, so his flight is covered by EU 261/2004.

The Entire Flight, Including Connections, Is Covered by EU 261/2004

Elliot describes a situation where his initial flight departing London had no issues and even arrived a bit early; rather, his connecting flight in Washington DC was the one that was delayed. Since this connecting flight was departing the U.S., does that invalidate his EU 261 claim? You can almost bet that United will either claim it does or otherwise fight his claim tooth and nail to avoid paying.

But in fact, Elliot has a claim. See Air France SA v Heinz-Gerke Folkerts and Luz-Tereza Folkerts, where the European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruled that just because the original flight was not delayed beyond the limits laid down by EU law does not affect the right to compensation. In the case, Mrs Folkerts held a single ticket from Bremen, Germany to Asuncion in Paraguay via Paris and Sao Paulo. There was an initial 2.5 hour delay out of Bremen, that caused her to miss her flight from Paris to Sao Paulo, and her later rebooked flight to Sao Paulo also caused her to miss her original flight from Sao Paulo to Asuncion, resulting in a total 11 hour delay.

Air France argued that since the initial 2.5 hour delay was less than the 3 hour delay required for EU 261/2004 to apply, it wasn't liable for the 600 EUR it had been ordered to pay. The Court of Justice disagreed with Air France, and ruled, bolding mine:

"...a passenger on directly connecting flights must be compensated when he has been delayed at departure for a period below the limits specified in the regulation, but has arrived at his final destination at least three hours later than the scheduled arrival time. That compensation is not conditional upon there having been a delay at departure."

Just note that the entire journey must be on a single ticket; naturally, if Elliot and his family had held a separate ticket from Washington to Orlando there would be no compensation due. And if there was a stopover such that it was no longer part of a single journey, the delay out of Washington wouldn't count either for purposes of EU 261 compensation.


I will be interested in the outcome of the case referred to . Has it been heard yet ?
Thanks

Vauban

Carol_B wrote: »

I am currently fighting this with Virgin who told me the same as my flight was delayed on the connection outside the EU I wasn't eligible. However I have sent a copy of this ( can't post link, not allowed on here) To Bott online solicitors. I got it from travel sort.com a travel blog. :
Is EU 261/2004 compensation owed when the US connecting flight is delayed? TravelSort reader Elliot commented on my post Getting United to Pay EU Compensation for a Flight Delay:
"I'm wondering if I can claim EU compensation as our connecting flight was delayed. We were a party of 8 (4 children) and flew United Airlines, Heathrow -> Washington -> Orlando. The Heathrow to Washington flight actually arrived early, however after boarding the 12.30 pm Washington flight and getting to the end of the runway we got told there was a technical fault with the plane.
We spent an hour on the runway before returning back and after a couple of hours got told the flight was cancelled and we'd been booked on the 10.15 pm flight...Anyway 10 hour delay, and total door to door delay of around 29 hours, but as the delay was in the US can we claim that we were actually traveling from London to Orlando via Washington...or will United claim it was just Washington to Orlando that was delayed and not valid for an EU claim?"
This is a great question, and I wouldn't be surprised if this scenario has occurred to other readers. First, I'll recap the eligibility requirements for EU 261/2004 compensation to apply:
Your flight is departing from an airport located in an EU Member State; or
Traveling to an EU Member State on an airline based in an EU Member State
You have a confirmed reservation on the flight and arrived in time for check-in
The delay must be 3 hours or more than the scheduled arrival time
Note that this means that EU compensation is NEVER due for flights TO Europe on a United flight (or AA, Delta, or any other non-EU member airline); it only applies to flights FROM the EU if you're flying United or another U.S. or non-EU carrier. In this case, Elliot and his family were departing the EU from London LHR on United, so his flight is covered by EU 261/2004.

The Entire Flight, Including Connections, Is Covered by EU 261/2004

Elliot describes a situation where his initial flight departing London had no issues and even arrived a bit early; rather, his connecting flight in Washington DC was the one that was delayed. Since this connecting flight was departing the U.S., does that invalidate his EU 261 claim? You can almost bet that United will either claim it does or otherwise fight his claim tooth and nail to avoid paying.

But in fact, Elliot has a claim. See Air France SA v Heinz-Gerke Folkerts and Luz-Tereza Folkerts, where the European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruled that just because the original flight was not delayed beyond the limits laid down by EU law does not affect the right to compensation. In the case, Mrs Folkerts held a single ticket from Bremen, Germany to Asuncion in Paraguay via Paris and Sao Paulo. There was an initial 2.5 hour delay out of Bremen, that caused her to miss her flight from Paris to Sao Paulo, and her later rebooked flight to Sao Paulo also caused her to miss her original flight from Sao Paulo to Asuncion, resulting in a total 11 hour delay.

Air France argued that since the initial 2.5 hour delay was less than the 3 hour delay required for EU 261/2004 to apply, it wasn't liable for the 600 EUR it had been ordered to pay. The Court of Justice disagreed with Air France, and ruled, bolding mine:

"...a passenger on directly connecting flights must be compensated when he has been delayed at departure for a period below the limits specified in the regulation, but has arrived at his final destination at least three hours later than the scheduled arrival time. That compensation is not conditional upon there having been a delay at departure."

Just note that the entire journey must be on a single ticket; naturally, if Elliot and his family had held a separate ticket from Washington to Orlando there would be no compensation due. And if there was a stopover such that it was no longer part of a single journey, the delay out of Washington wouldn't count either for purposes of EU 261 compensation.


I will be interested in the outcome of the case referred to . Has it been heard yet ?
Thanks

I don't think Folkerts helps you with the argument the airline will use to deny your claim: that there has to be a delay to your original flight from an EU airport for compensation to kick in. In the case of Folkerts, the missed connection was within the EU, and there was a delay to the initial first leg flight. Neither of these things apply in your case.

I don't think the Court of Appeal judgement will help you either - both cases involve situations where there is an initial delay to the first flight (I think).

No one knows this for sure - but I understand that none of the reputable NWNF solicitors will take these cases on, because they don't think they're eligible for 261/04 compensation.

Carol_B

Thank you, that's probably why the solicitors haven't replied to me !

JPears

bumped to tidy board

AdamW85

Afternoon All,

First time posting in this thread but have read with interest on a few other posts.

To cut a long story short I have used Resolver to lodge a compensation claim with Qatar Airways due to a delayed 1st leg flight from Heathrow to Doha on 16/11/17. The flight was delayed by ~3 hours, but the connecting flight from Doha to Phuket (also Qatar) was missed, and they put us on a flight the following morning which arrived ~ 12 hours later than anticipated. The boarding gate staff as usual didnt give any information other than 'unscheduled maintenance'.

As far as I am concerned we fall well within the rights for a compensation claim.

I have just received a reply from Qatar via Resolver:

Dear Mr. XXX,

Thank you for your feedback which was reviewed by our department.



Firstly we apologize for the flight/date typo in our previous e-mail.




We are sorry for the inconvenience that you encountered and can fully appreciate how unsettling this situation must have been for you. Although every effort is made to achieve on time departures, there are occasions when flights are delayed / cancelled due to circumstances beyond our control as it unfortunately happened with flight QR6/16th November 2017


Whilst we seek your kind understanding that delays/disruptions of this nature can be unforeseen, we would like to reassure you that every effort is made to ensure the prompt operation of all our flights and to minimize any potential disruption which may be caused to our valued customers' travel plans. Qatar Airways puts paramount importance on the safety of our passengers and staff in our daily operation. As such, you will appreciate the fact that we will only operate our flight when it is safe to do so.


We are further concerned to learn of your feedback relating to the service level you received and how the situation was handled which you feel did not reflect the services we strive to achieve.

We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience which may have been caused on this occasion. Please rest assured that the same has been forward to the relevant department for their attention and further perusal assuring you that the necessary steps will be taken to ensure our services continue to improve.

Regrettably we will be unable to accommodate your request of compensation.

We appreciate the time you have taken to write to us and continue to look forward to another opportunity of welcoming you on our services in the near future.









Sincerely yours,



Mary Iskandar

Customer Care Officer

To be honest I expected this after reading a few other claim stories, and now pondering how best to proceed.

I assume it is to go through the regulator (CAA??) but I need to wait 10 days to do this through Resolver?

Any advice you can provide would be greatly recieved :beer:

Thanks.

JPears

You could escalate through resolver and request the exact details of why the aircraft was delayed and why they think it's an EC.
I doubt they will tell you though.
By all means make a complaint to CAA but that probably won't get you any further.
Emirates recently lost a case in the CoA regarding connecting single journey flights, and it's understood they have made an application for leave to appeal the appeal in the SC. This is relevant as your case is similar. Go as far as you can short of court action and await the outcome of Emirates action?

AdamW85

Hi JPears,

Unless I am missing something escalating through Resolver sends the case to the CAA?

Or am I completely wrong?

JPears

I don't know resolver that well, but I don't think so? Resolver is just a generalised letter writing exercise, which occasionally gets results. Mostly not.

leylandsunaddict

Resolver is just an online site that supplies email templates and gives advice. They have no powers and don't escalate anything. They advise you when they think it's time for you to escalate, but most people could work that out themselves. I suppose if people can't handle composing a few emails to put their case forward or keep track of outgoing and in going emails it's of use.