Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

Oscartheposcar

Coulsdon_Town wrote: »

I've realise E.C.O. has barely been mentioned on this thread.

Yes, this is what I'm interested in. We live in a stone built cottage (built 1900) and so a potential ECO grant for internal solid wall insulation would be worth considering, even though I don't think I'd want to get tied into a Green Deal loan. I'll be giving the Energy Saving Trust a call soon to find out more about this, and will be interested to know what level of grant might be on offer and if there are restrictions about using Green Deal approved contractors etc

shays_mum

Ken68 wrote: »

Am really impressed with the research by Martin and team.
Have ordered a free survey from Aran.
James mentions in another thread that EWI has fire risk concerns in Germany.

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9820

Hi,
Was wondering if you could post/pm the details for the free survey from Aran?
Thanks in advance

shays_mum

So have i got this right?.

I have a house i am refurbing, new boiler, loft insulation etc etc. I can get a green survey, get the assessment & free cashback?? (am using my savings to do the work).

What's the catch & how are checks done?

Thanks!

mishan_2

Could I also please get the details for Aran for a free survey.

Thanks in advance.

mishan_2

shays_mum wrote: »

So have i got this right?.

I have a house i am refurbing, new boiler, loft insulation etc etc. I can get a green survey, get the assessment & free cashback?? (am using my savings to do the work).

What's the catch & how are checks done?

Thanks!

Qrv6USdD

Please could you PM me the details too?

Thank you

Coulsdon_Town

Re temperature / thermostat setting, Gloucester Lad says in his post #129 that they do ask and record the temp. the house is kept at. He isn't a G.D. Advisor but he is a Domestic Energy Assessor. He says they do make some worrying assumptions (and i think that's because the software has limitations and is performing an 'rdSAP' which is a 'reduced data Standard Assessment Procedure' instead of a full SAP). I don't know if any of your other assumptions about their assumptions are correct.

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Your impression of the way the scheme works in practice is different to the impression I've got.

For a start, a major problem with the scheme is that the energy savings (which then go to pay off the loan) are estimated.

They don't care what your bills are for your house at the moment. They work out what they think they should be from a set formula. If you have your heating currently at 19C, but there standard assessment says the temperature is assumed to be 21C, they work out the current bills based on 21C. So you may pay £1kpa, but they may assess your bill at £1.5k. (This is just what I've picked up from the net - please could any assessors confirm/put me right?).

They may say put in CVI. They then reassess, saying the standard bill for the average house of your type in your location with cvi should be £1.2k - a green deal assessed saving of £300pa, which would be added to your bill to pay off the loan.

In practice, if you keep your house at 19, you may save £100 due to cvi, i.e. lowering the energy cost from £1k to £900. You then have added on, a perfectly green deal golden rule compatible £300pa to your bill, making it £1.2kpa - £200 more than bfore. This solely due to them not even wanting to know what you actual bills are currently, or what they will be in the future. They are only interested in assessed/estimated/deemed/notional bills.

You keep your home cooler (as I do and I expect millions of others do - I don't even want 20C in every room in my house) - so it's likely you won't in practice save on your bills as you expect, and they may well be increased (20% in the example above).

Once again, I'd like to qualify this with this is info I've picked up from the web, not any official info. So may be completely incorrect (as most posts on most forums with googled info). Appreciate a trained assessors comments on this.

mingo_mango

I work in this industry along with my husband who is currently going through the green deal training. This in itself is proving to be difficult as they have almost made it impossible to qualify and my husband would sail through this training so if he cant pass it there is something wrong. The cost of these courses is expensive and no assessor is going to do it for peanuts as they are never going to make any money. Mark group may be doing it for free at the moment but that will soon change. There are approx only 80 qualified green deal assessors in the country, The insulation industry are laying people of daily as there is no work due to the grants ending in December and this not being up and running soon enough.

Initial thoughts are it will not work as there are too many problems with it already. People who need to make their homes more energy efficient will not be able to afford the extra on their bills albeit supposed to be less than they are saving. If you cannot actually see the money you are saving you will only see the additional payments as another outgoing.

with the ECO side rumours are that they will still have to take out a small loan which will not be feasible as they cant afford it as they are on benefits and who is going to pay for their assessments.

I phoned the energy savings trust this afternoon as a potential customer to see what they would say. The man was rude and could not explain it properly could not send me any information I had to write it down. All he did was give me 3 local companies to ring for assessment all over 100 miles away

It will be like the HIPS gone in a couple of years along with approx 30,000 jobs which will be gone in the next 3 months !!

Coulsdon_Town

Re. windows - if someone is sure that's all they need and they have the money, then forget Green Deal. If they can borrow elsewhere, do so. If not, a Green Deal loan, which is 'unsecured' and has easier rules than most for those with a poor credit history, could be the way forward. If that someone wants a whole house report, get a Green Deal report then do any of the above, or maybe just get a new EPC which is cheaper, and these days includes suggestions for Green Deal type improvements.
Re the debt/loan - i for one would have no problem in principle with buying a Green Deal'ed house. I would look at the energy bills and the loan repayments first.
Re. energy savings - if you improve insulation and leave the 'stat alone, fuel consumption goes down, all other things remaining the same. If you replace boiler with a more efficient one sending less heat out of the flue, ditto. If you improve your windows, ditto.
A more efficient building in terms of heat loss, DOES save energy without changing the 'stat, unless something else changes too. Whether that saving is enough to justify the expenditure and a possible G.D. loan is an entirely separate matter.
There is a view that when fuel use goes down after a home improvement, comfort levels (e.g. the 'stat) are adjusted upwards so that the bill ends up the same, because that's what they could afford and still can (fancy name : Jevons Paradox). However, any G. D. loan repayments will be on the electricity bill so are likely to stop that happening i would think.

sashman wrote: »

Firstly MSE great summary of the GD in your guide.

Having met ministers about this subject I am still at a loss why it is beingpromoted.

GD windows cost consumers MORE, see you guide notes work is £2500 repaymentis more than twice as much! That’s a rip off.

GD saves money, NOT guaranteed. If the thermostat stays at the same levelthere's NO SAVING, the reduction of energy to save the costs has to come fromlower usage, it is not automatic.

GD isn’t personal debt TRUE is belongs to the house, but you try sellingyour house with a 25 year loan against it, it's PERSONAL THEN, when you cannotsell the thing!

Don’t get me wrong, I admire the coalition for doing something different,but there will be two winners with GD, firstly the banks and lendingauthorities charging high rates of interest (more than the goods themselves inyour illustration) and Landlords. Landlords, people with money and propertieswill get improvements made and their tenants will pay for it via their electricbills, NICE con!

Such a pity the government didn't listen to industry because we came up witha number of better solutions....oh yes they went to consultation and that willbe their "get out of jail card" but they didn’t incorporate thesuggestions.

Mark my words, mis-selling of the GD will be the next fiasco because nobodyunderstands it and savings are not guaranteed.

sashman

Gloucester_Lad

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Your impression of the way the scheme works in practice is different to the impression I've got.

For a start, a major problem with the scheme is that the energy savings (which then go to pay off the loan) are estimated.

They don't care what your bills are for your house at the moment. They work out what they think they should be from a set formula. If you have your heating currently at 19C, but there standard assessment says the temperature is assumed to be 21C, they work out the current bills based on 21C. So you may pay £1kpa, but they may assess your bill at £1.5k. (This is just what I've picked up from the net - please could any assessors confirm/put me right?).

They may say put in CVI. They then reassess, saying the standard bill for the average house of your type in your location with cvi should be £1.2k - a green deal assessed saving of £300pa, which would be added to your bill to pay off the loan.

In practice, if you keep your house at 19, you may save £100 due to cvi, i.e. lowering the energy cost from £1k to £900. You then have added on, a perfectly green deal golden rule compatible £300pa to your bill, making it £1.2kpa - £200 more than bfore. This solely due to them not even wanting to know what you actual bills are currently, or what they will be in the future. They are only interested in assessed/estimated/deemed/notional bills.

You keep your home cooler (as I do and I expect millions of others do - I don't even want 20C in every room in my house) - so it's likely you won't in practice save on your bills as you expect, and they may well be increased (20% in the example above).

Once again, I'd like to qualify this with this is info I've picked up from the web, not any official info. So may be completely incorrect (as most posts on most forums with googled info). Appreciate a trained assessors comments on this.

Well, I'm not a GDAdvisor but I am a DEA (EPC provider) and I do know a little about this.
The GDA will produce an EPC (just like me) and that will throw up recommended improvement measures. The EPC will also give estimated energy usage and potential savings based on a standard occupancy model written into the software.
Now for reasons clearly obvious to you already to base any golden rule on those figures would be very iffy indeed because few households conveniently fit the standard model. The standard model is used on all properties so comparison between all properties is made possible. Remember before the Green Deal came along that's what an EPC was for.

The GDA will, in addition to an EPC, produce an occupancy assessment, This is designed to look at the way the property is used by the current occupants and get more accurate figures to see if any golden rule will fit. So at least some effort is made to get the numbers to add up.

However, it's all very vague and still gives me very little confidence that the golden rule calculation is at all credible, certainly over the duration of the loan period. Not many changes are needed to render the golden rule calculation useless and for any new owner of the property the figures will be completely meaningless without a reassessment.

So your skepticism of the validity of golden rule calculation is I think well founded, but perhaps your example detail is not quite as accurate as it might be.
Not intended as any criticism you picked all this up from the web and qualified it by asking for a trained assessors opinion. Well I am one, at least a DEA if not a GDA. I think I've got it right but would welcome input from a GDA to confirm or correct any inaccuracies.

mammykerr

Hi

Just thought i'd let people know i've had a green deal assessment done by british gas, i booked it before a lot of the information came out as i was hoping it would be a great way to get my windows done.

The assessment was a very basic EPC and did not say anything else, i already had an epc from september so was not impressed. he went away and is sending me a report within 28 days but there was no hard sell whatsoever.

I explained i was interested in new windows and maybe the solar thermal water, he made a note of this and said information would be in my report.

What he did say was with windows only saving 10% you could probably not get them fully on green deal because of the golden rule and would need to pay some money initially to qualify for golden rule savings, this could be what a previous poster interpreted or was informed was a deposit.

I was hoping he'd try to push me to get things with cashback and get info re ECO but no information on it, i think having to pay 99.00 was a lot to them wait 28 days for a report but i suppose its a means to an end as i may still want to get new windows. i know i could get these cheaper on credit but i want to get a new car with a credit card and planning on an extension next year so i'm still in two minds. Not planning on moving but thinking if i got up to 15 year loan the repayment charges would not apply.

I will let you know when i get my report.