Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

Richie-from-the-Boro

Coulsdon_Town wrote: »

Fair enough.
I don't feel the same way at the moment.
There is also ECO (The Energy Companies Obligation). This i several pots of money which can be Given to people in certain circumstances e.g. on pension credit or tax credits/low income. You do still have to get a G.D. assessment done, but it's free money.

Personal question :

You are aware that this whole thing is Department for Energy and Climate Change, more climate change than anything else - are you ?

You are aware that the energy companies will aggregate the claw back from non-pension credit or tax credits / low income accounts - are you ?

You are aware that regardless of government protestations the energy companies will claw back these additional costs from their consumers - are you ?

You are aware that Angela Knight, CO of Energy UK, already stated the change will have an “impact” on household bills, meaning they will get the same overall income across all accounts?

You are ware that the energy companies will aggregate the claw back from those customer groups accounts that are not .. .. pension credit or tax credits / low income accounts - are you ?

Are you an eco-warrior who just wants the climate change bit at any cost and don't mind if the poor of these Islands fund it - aka the former mental hospital eco 350 dwelling build Coulsdon and Cane Hill masterplan ?

NaughtySpot

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

"Foisting debt onto people, especially those in far more perilous financial situations than my own, to me is socially irresponsible - Therefore, it is important to point this out!"

Have you noticed in general and in the particular, how in this very thread the unsuccessful early # promoters of the Green Deal have moved from a variety of what they described as a menu good reasons to an exclusive and targeted single meal reason of :

- hard up
- no money
- don't need any money to do it
- no spare cash
- don't need a credit rating
- cash-strapped householder

Sign here you mug, I've found a new way of selling it, the poor cold, infirm and deprived will come in hoards, they can't get finance at any price in the UK unless they come to me ....... get in line please .. .. sign here.

People with money or credit will see through this and realise a 30% saving, and they are already doing just that. The government published papers 6 months ago expressing exactly those fears, yet the scheme went ahead. Driving the poor in a straight line into debt in a desperate but understandable need to care for their family is a disgraceful act.

I take it this was a dig at me? This was my first reply and I mentioned the money straight away...

NaughtySpot wrote: »

We have our Green Deal assessment this week, booked through British Gas at a cost of £99.

When I booked this I was quite positive about this, but it has had a real slating in the press in the last 10 days

We live in a large three-bed semi with single pane windows front and side, and a 20+ year old boiler. We are on a service contract for the boiler so I don't worry about repairs, but I am aware it's probably far from economical to run. My old house was much smaller with a new boiler so I'm not sure how much a new boiler will reduce energy costs.

Our windows are very draughty and are a condensation problem unless I put the cling film on them. It does help with the draughts, but they are still there when compared to the double glazed units at the back.

Cavity wall and loft insulation was done 3 years ago.

We are unlikely to ever have the cash to do all these things in one go, so this could be a golden opportunity to get the house more efficient. This is our forever home unless Bad Things happen, so the loan attached to house part doesn't concern me.

I am very interested to see what this assessment yields as when we bought the house these home reports weren't being done.

I will post again when the assessment has been done with my thoughts and hopefully will have more facts to share.

I think money drives a lot of our decisions.

Coulsdon_Town

Take heart NaughtySpot, it could have been a dig at me instead, or as well - a couple of the quoted phrases sound like mine.

NaughtySpot wrote: »

I take it this was a dig at me? This was my first reply and I mentioned the money straight away...



I think money drives a lot of our decisions.

Coulsdon_Town

A lot of personal questions actually. No, i'm not an eco-warrior. Cane Hill is irrelevant to this thread, but read this : "The Homes and Communities Agency (HCA) have announce that Barratt Development is the preferred developer.... The instructions are to deliver a residential-led mixed use scheme of around 650 eco-friendly mixed tenure houses and the enhancement of existing open spaces". So 'Eco' is in the official brief to the builders.
Back to Green Deal, yes i am aware that there is cross-subsidy from the better off to the worse off, via everyone's energy bill. This was also the case under CERT (free insulation etc) for several years recently. I'm not sure if that's fair or not, but it's outside my control and i don't endorse it.
I'm also quite willing to accept that the Big 6 may ensure they are no worse off whatever happens. Again, not my doing.
I realise i have put up a lot of posts but i don't seek to dominate the thread in any way. I had considered becoming a Green Deal Advisor but am not happy with the risk of being pressured into over-selling or mis-selling so i haven't trained to be one thus far. I work in energy advice, so i'm trying simply to add my semi-professional experience to the thread. I'm also learning by researching, when i need to.

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Personal question :

You are aware that this whole thing is Department for Energy and Climate Change, more climate change than anything else - are you ?

You are aware that the energy companies will aggregate the claw back from non-pension credit or tax credits / low income accounts - are you ?

You are aware that regardless of government protestations the energy companies will claw back these additional costs from their consumers - are you ?

You are aware that Angela Knight, CO of Energy UK, already stated the change will have an “impact” on household bills, meaning they will get the same overall income across all accounts?

You are ware that the energy companies will aggregate the claw back from those customer groups accounts that are not .. .. pension credit or tax credits / low income accounts - are you ?

Are you an eco-warrior who just wants the climate change bit at any cost and don't mind if the poor of these Islands fund it - aka the former mental hospital eco 350 dwelling build Coulsdon and Cane Hill Masterplan QUOTE]

Coulsdon_Town

I've realise E.C.O. has barely been mentioned on this thread. To quote point 13 of MSE's Green Deal Mythbusters article : "You don't always need to borrow. Launched alongside the Green Deal is the Energy Company Obligations (Eco) scheme. This gives grants to help low-income households, people living in older properties and low-income communities. Plus there's help for ANYONE needing solid wall, or hard-to-treat cavity wall insulation."
For a brief summary also see the Energy Saving Trust's website or call their advice line on 0300 123 1234 (England and N. Ireland. National call rate charged) or for Scotland and Wales 0800 512 012 (free call fro m a landline.

Richie-from-the-Boro

NaughtySpot wrote: »

I take it this was a dig at me? This was my first reply and I mentioned the money straight away...



I think money drives a lot of our decisions.

- it does, but these thread are read by millions who never post and have no membership
- most of the UK can find alternative savings of 20-30%, some I agree such as those without credit [Debt Management Plans]
- will have no choice but accept the GD at face non-value
- the huge bulk of the UK can use their bank, building society or other alternative credit lines
- that's no reason not to warn the huge bulk of the UK that they are being driven into the next 'selling scandal'

hms85

Hello,

Was wondering if anybody thinking of signing up to the green deal is in a similar situation, as I am planning on having an assessment in the next three weeks.

I own a one bedroom flat in a grade 2 listed townhouse (it's the middle flat with one above and one below). I bought it in October. I am renovating it at present and it currently does not have any central heating. There is an old immersion tank in the bedroom that I am taking out. The windows on the flat are all subject to getting listed building consent, initially I thought I would need them all replacing (the are original) however the only one that needs replacing is the bathroom window.

The flat currently has pre payment electric meter, ideally I would this to be a monthly DD. (However this isn't a big issue).

I haven't moved in yet (no water, no bathroom, kitchen etc) so I am unsure how I can make a saving on my bill using the greendeal? I have no experience of living there full time (save for topping up the electricity meter for tools/lights etc). Will they base it on an average one bed flat?

Is anybody thinking of using the greendeal for a listed or very old property they are currently renovating? (I am not a property developer; plan on living in it as soon as it is complete)

Any advice prior to assessment would be helpful

Thanks

Gloucester_Lad

Coulsdon_Town wrote: »

An assessment by a Green Deal Advisor comprises a new EPC AND an 'Occupancy Assessment'. I don't know all the details as i'm not a GDA, but i believe this is meant to make the process accurate for the occupants of the property. It does beg the question though - what happens if the property changes hands to a household with very different energy use?

Yes you are correct, well partly, I am a DEA (rather than a GDAdisor) so already do the EPC bit for sales and rentals.
I was considering becoming a GDA until I concluded that the Green Deal really wasn't any good. I think anyone going for the Green Deal is going to be very disappointed when they get all those green improvements but find that inflated Green Deal Club prices coupled to interest results in no bill savings for several years. And perhaps even bigger bills.
Yes the property will be improved and no one is saying don't do that but do it outside the Green Deal and you'll get some proper savings much sooner. It does mean getting off your bum and organizing things yourself but it's really no harder to do that than for any other home improvement.

As for the occupancy assessment, well during my "should I become a GDA research" I looked at this so I do know a little about it.
In very simple terms it looks at how the property is used currently by the would be Green Deal applicant. How many people live there, how many hours per day it's heated, what temperature, whether all rooms are heated etc. etc.
The result is then compared to what the assessment methodology considers typical. Advice is given as to what could be done to get closer to this typical figure (and fit the golden rule)
Property improvement recommendations are given numerical values which are supposed to justify savings to fit in with the "Golden Rule". Althought to be fair on the GDA sometimes I'm sure he'll tell you they won't fit.
So yes this does make the assessment a little more accurate and particular to that number of people in that house with regard to those upgrade measures.
However I still feel the process is extremely vague and even with a built in theoretical safety margin the golden rule figures are far from reliable. It only needs someone to move out or an addition to the family, to throw it well out of kilter. Plus of course move house and it's a new game altogether for the new home owner or tenant.
Not to mention that some upgrade measures perhaps like solid wall insulation are very unlikely to fit in with any golden rule however you try to work the numbers. For such measures you'll get a modest grant (or a reduction on an already inflated Green Deal price) but you'll have to put some money in too.

Now the Golden rule is very important, especially if you're paying well over the odds plus interest, so easy to see how efforts are made to make it all fit, or initially seem to fit.
But less significant because it's much easier to achieve if you go your own way and get the work done at a much lower price. Do your own sums save loads.

If you don't know what improvements are best.

Simple stuff first, drought excluders, if you don't use that fireplace block that open chimney

Insulation, loft and cavity wall, solid wall insulation is a bit of a special problem

Secondary or double glazing,

A modern boiler and heating controls. Although if your boiler is say a post 2000 non-condenser but still working well wait until it becomes uneconomical to fix. These post 2000 boilers tend to be around or even a little above 70% efficient so the improvement a modern boiler will give (90%) really doesn't make dumping a perfectly serviceable post 2000 boiler viable. Remember your new condensing boiler won't have the life span of your older boiler, but it will be more fuel efficient (swings and roundabouts).

To put it even more simply do the cheaper fixes first to give you the best saving for improvement cost.

You don't need a Green Deal assessment.
You don't need to pay inflated Green Deal Prices.
You don't need to pay as much as 7% interest.
You don't need to wait 10 years plus before you see some bill savings

You only need Green Deal if you're in the category where ECO (free upgrades) might help you. And if you are get it while you can.

The website is called money saving expert. And save money is what you'll do if you organizing your own energy efficiency upgrades. Compared to the Green Deal lots of it too.

Me_fishy_u_chippie

Coulsdon_Town wrote: »

A lot of personal questions actually. No, i'm not an eco-warrior. Cane Hill is irrelevant to this thread, but read this : "The Homes and Communities Agency (HCA) have announce that Barratt Development is the preferred developer.... The instructions are to deliver a residential-led mixed use scheme of around 650 eco-friendly mixed tenure houses and the enhancement of existing open spaces". So 'Eco' is in the official brief to the builders.
Back to Green Deal, yes i am aware that there is cross-subsidy from the better off to the worse off, via everyone's energy bill. This was also the case under CERT (free insulation etc) for several years recently. I'm not sure if that's fair or not, but it's outside my control and i don't endorse it.
I'm also quite willing to accept that the Big 6 may ensure they are no worse off whatever happens. Again, not my doing.
I realise i have put up a lot of posts but i don't seek to dominate the thread in any way. I had considered becoming a Green Deal Advisor but am not happy with the risk of being pressured into over-selling or mis-selling so i haven't trained to be one thus far. I work in energy advice, so i'm trying simply to add my semi-professional experience to the thread. I'm also learning by researching, when i need to.

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Personal question :

You are aware that this whole thing is Department for Energy and Climate Change, more climate change than anything else - are you ?

You are aware that the energy companies will aggregate the claw back from non-pension credit or tax credits / low income accounts - are you ?

You are aware that regardless of government protestations the energy companies will claw back these additional costs from their consumers - are you ?

You are aware that Angela Knight, CO of Energy UK, already stated the change will have an “impact” on household bills, meaning they will get the same overall income across all accounts?

You are ware that the energy companies will aggregate the claw back from those customer groups accounts that are not .. .. pension credit or tax credits / low income accounts - are you ?

Are you an eco-warrior who just wants the climate change bit at any cost and don't mind if the poor of these Islands fund it - aka the former mental hospital eco 350 dwelling build Coulsdon and Cane Hill Masterplan QUOTE]

Coulsden Town - hello again. I am intrigued by you. You are in energy advice. I imagine that's offering positive advice to others for their benefit? You say that you are concerned enough, by the pressure on cross /miss selling not to train to become a GDA. You see the obvious conflict of interest in the Big Six wanting to ensure they are "no worse off" under the GD (so whats their motivation to be involved IN the GD in the first place - presumably, they have a duty of professional care to sell more of their products to enrich their owners, the shareholders, therefore, the GD is in direct contravention of their stated business aim?).

Recognising and knowing this, you are of the opinion in general terms, its a good deal! I'll now ask for your advice.

Would you recommend this deal to Mr Poor-Pleb or are their better deals out there for him?

xx

rumu123

I am also interested about this scheme. However, main concern is:
1. What will happen when I sell my home with this debt?
2. How can I make sure that I am saving money, because saving depends on usage habit?
3. What is the minimum pay off period? Can I pay off in cash to avoid interest?
4. The cash back is not enough. Anyway something is better than nothing.

Ultimately, this is the Govt’s good way of recovering recession by money circulating among the home owner, deal assessor, deal provider and deal installer.