Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion

Coulsdon_Town

I don't disagree with much of your comment but three of my own : I thought the interest rate was going to be around 7%.
I believe the loan in described as 'unsecured' rather than against a property. So if say, a tenanted property becomes empty, no-one has an electricity account there and the landlord can't be traced, i imagine the lender cannot force a sale to get their money back.
The Golden Rule of the loan will say that energy savings must equal or exceed the repayments in year one; if energy prices rise thereafter the savings will increase but the loan repayments won't.

Me_fishy_u_chippie wrote: »

Dear fellow Threaders,

Firstly, I have no involvement in the GD at all. However, I do specialise in energy efficiency of commercial buildings. So, out of natural curiosity I am interested in the view of the "man on the Clapham omnibus", regarding the GD.

From my vantage point here in my fish bowl I would like to share a few observations.

I find it ironic that this government, whilst lauding the importance of living within ones means and not getting into an unsustainable debt spiral it is asking the neediest and financially weakest in society to errrr ....take out debt! Interesting - square that circle!

The GD is meant to provide help to those inhabiting the least energy efficient dwellings, often the poorest sections of our society IE those that most need help to address fuel poverty and ever rising energy bills.

So, if i understand this deal as Martin eruditely describes it, I'm left asking a few questions. If "Mr Poor-Pleb", takes advice and undertakes £900 of upgrades over 25 years at 10.9% he pays back a whopping £3,500. Wow, that's a lot of dosh going somewhere. Given that its loaned against a property and the average house price in the UK is £250,000 that is a USUARY rate of interest!

So, I looked into the people offering this "deal". The Green Deal Finance Co, a not-for-profit company no less. It will come as a surprise to most people that NFPCo's do make profits and in many cases these are huge! The difference to a normal company is that these companies return only "surplus" profits back into the company after "expenses and running costs, bonuses, duckponds, first class flights etc etc"

So who are the members/owners of the GDFCo? Hmmmm. Lets take a wee look.

Amongst others E.On, SSE, BG, EDF,EVO,RWE Npower wow that's most of the BIG SIX. Now, call me old fashioned, but I thought power generation companies made profits from selling MORE of their product not LESS?

But wait! I think I see whats going on here! Mr Poor-Pleb makes savings on his annual energy bill (hopefully, but no guarantees afterall, the Golden Rule refers to could, not, should or will, and anyway its not a Golden Guarantee) so, with those "savings" he repays the difference to the GDFCo who continues to fleece him for 25 years.

The difference in the loss the energy company suffers from a reduction in lowering consumption is more than handsomely compensated by the 10.9% rate for 25 years!! What a good wheeze this is - no wonder the energy companies have signed up!

In addition I also see that Goldman Sachs and HSBC are "advisors". So the not-for-profit GDFCo only returns "surplus" profit after costs are taken into account - well we all know how greedy bankers are and, lets face it, Goldman Sachs is notorious for its single minded pursuit of profit!

So fellow Threaders, please do put me on the straight and narrow if I have got this wrong. Can someone please explain to me how does Mr Poor-Pleb benefit in anyway OVER the lifetime of the deal if all his savings are repaying a loan?

Answers on a waterproof post card!

xx

Coulsdon_Town

Agree about the rads - i guess the assessor could have an honest view that they are knackered, but rads are expected to last 40 years i believe (unlike boilers!). I think those lovely offers on loft insulation may have ended for good - the ones such as 'buy one, get 3 free' or '£1 a roll' were subsidised by a scheme called CERT, and that ended when Green Deal started.

JohnO2013 wrote: »

You only need a new boiler if the current one does not work. Whilst a new condensing boiler may be more energy efficient, it may not be cost effective to change (depends on efficiency of current boiler and the area to be heated).

An energy assessor has no reason to advise that radiators be changed!!!

If you are able to, wait until one of the DIY outlets has a special on loft insulation, and do it yourself. Twelve inches (30 cms) will provide a good level of insulation; just keep the eaves clear.

Coulsdon_Town

You can have Green Deal with a prepay meter - see MSE Green Deal Mythbusters article (Near the top of it).

new2reviews wrote: »

Have the rules surrounding prepayment meters and Green Deal changed recently? I was under the impression pre-payment meters didn't work with Green Deal as there was no guarantee of a regular payment being made.

new_owner

Gloucester_Lad wrote: »

Other than that if you substitute Green Deal Adviser for EPC assessor I completely agree with every word.

Sorry thats exactly what I meant

per220676

In the last 4 months i have had a combination of double and triple glazing fitted throughout the house and a new boiler.
Does anyone know if cashback can be claimed after the fact?
Regards
Paul

Coulsdon_Town

Definitely not i would say.

per220676 wrote: »

In the last 4 months i have had a combination of double and triple glazing fitted throughout the house and a new boiler.
Does anyone know if cashback can be claimed after the fact?
Regards
Paul

jamesd

per220676 wrote: »

In the last 4 months i have had a combination of double and triple glazing fitted throughout the house and a new boiler.
Does anyone know if cashback can be claimed after the fact?

Cashback and other parts of Green Deal are only available if work is done by Green Deal approved suppliers after a Green Deal assessment. If this does not apply to your work then you do not qualify.

One of the more troubling aspects of the Green Deal is the way it severely limits the suppliers that can be used, effectively creating a substantially less competitive market for Green Deal work.

Richie-from-the-Boro

It was never the objective to provide a level playing field to suppliers, the benefits of a competitive market are really not relevant to required outcomes. The real outcomes are the UK governments (1) employment figures and (2) carbon reduction and air quality requirements :

- the Governments own predicted green deal figures would create 100,000 jobs by 2016
- improved air quality [£0.3bn to £0.4bn]
- non-traded carbon savings [1.1bn to £2.0bn]
- traded carbon allowance savings [£0.7bn to £1.0bn]
- the government would save at least the £100 million allocated for the Warm Front scheme [12 Dec 2012] 2012-13
________________________

Caroline Flint said in Hansard on the 11th Jan 2012 "we must also ensure that they do not become the victims of cowboys involved in the scheme"

Me_fishy_u_chippie

UseLessEnergy wrote: »

If Mr Poor-Pleb has a home which is very energy inefficient he should consider steps to remedy this which could (should) lead to considerable energy bill savings.
He can choose to finance improvements anyway he wants..Green Deal is only another option open to him...he decides. Or he might decide not to bother and use high energy levels to heat his leaky home or wear 3 jumpers and stay in a colder house.
The issue is that most people (myself included a few years back) give energy efficiency little or zero consideration when moving into a property. If that mindset could change then the issues would be less significant.

Mr Poor-Pleb does not have the money to upgrade the efficiency of his house! The reason he could buy it (saying he owns it?) is because it was cheap - no roof, outside dunny, somewhere oop nurth etc etc. The wealthier can take steps to do exactly that - they have the dosh and therefore the options! The GD is directed at those that inhabit the least energy efficient houses and are in danger of fuel poverty.

Or am I getting the bends down here?

The point being, as my title suggested, - its not a good deal unless you are a banker or partner of the GDFCo!

Im surfacing for air!

Coulsdon_Town

Whatever you think of Green Deal (and i'm not defending it wholeheartedly), the whole point is that the likes of 'Mr Poor-Pleb' don't need any money to do it. The Green deal measures, if approved and meeting 'The golden Rule' - pay for themselves.
As UseLessEnergy said, Green Deal is only one financing option.
It's not compulsory. But if you have no spare cash it's there to use if you want to improve your home/ make it much cheaper to heat. Clearly there are major cautions around the quality of the assessor's visit, the quality of subsequent works etc etc.
But it can make sense for comfortably off people to invest and save huge heating costs in the long run, and they do. It may also make sense for those with no cash to use the scheme to put the improvements in place without there own cash. they then have a home without draughts/cold air currents/condensation or whatever the problems were. And even if they are no better off in cash terms in year one, as energy costs rise they will be, because 10% (say) on an £800 annual fuel bill is less than 10% on a £1200 annual fuel bill.