We WILL get an EU referendum

Conrad

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

No I didn't.

I said there won't be a referendum, and even if there is, we'd vote to stay in the EU.

That hasn't changed.

The chances of a Tory win, and hence referendum, are still zero.

But we will be able to renegotiate some powers back and thus become more competetive. For example on labour markets.


When we ducked joining the Euro the neg heads tried to convince us it was all down hill from there.

Trust your British instincts to lead and demand, rather than follow and whimper.

Conrad

globalds wrote: »

.For suddenly the main right wing party to decide that suddenly only a referendum is democratic

It was a ploy to get Milliband fully committed to the wrong side of the argument. Worked a treat.

Graham_Devon

globalds wrote: »

So for both parties to favour the decision of a parliamentary democracy for ever and a day is OK.
Then when I right wing party comes along with a single main agenda to remove us from the union ..For suddenly the main right wing party to decide that suddenly only a referendum is democratic says more about the panic in the ranks of the Tories than it does about Cameron's new found view that Vox populi is now the only true democracy

I don't care if it's a right, left, middle, or loony party that offers it.

I've NEVER been offered my say, or vote. Neither have half the electorate.

Why should I be denied that?

Please explain to me, why I should be denied my vote? It will probably be to stay in, by the way.

I'd be very interested in your argument as to why you should campaign against others having a say. Others who pay their taxes, of which some of their taxes will go to the EU. Others who are directly influenced by EU rulings.

Is there a convincing argument? This is democracy in action, and I do wish we saw more of it.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Conrad wrote: »

Honestly you must filter out all this progress Hamish.

GDP still 3% below what it was in 2007

A complete failure to fix the economy

A million FTB-s frozen out from buying thanks to mortgage rationing

Snuffing out the recovery they inherited with the wrong cuts, in the wrong places

Needlessly destroying consumer confidence with pointless pronouncements of Austerity

Utterly failing to fix the banks and broken lending system, and instead making it worse

U turn after U turn after U turn, and failed policy after failed policy.

You have rose tinted glasses on Conrad.

A._Badger

Conrad wrote: »

But we will be able to renegotiate some powers back and thus become more competetive. For example on labour markets.


When we ducked joining the Euro the neg heads tried to convince us it was all down hill from there.

Trust your British instincts to lead and demand, rather than follow and whimper.

While I think you are wrong about the Tories, I do think your point about the Euro deserves far wider recognition.

It is very revealing how many of those who are now so terrified of even the prospect of our leaving the EU were vocal advocates of our joining the Euro.

That's the measure of their grasp of economics, history, politics and, even, reality.

BobQ

Graham_Devon wrote: »

But we have no say on greater or lesser integration, so what would be the point in offering that choice?

It is what is is. Cameron is suggesting he will try to get a renegotiation, but absolutely everyone has so far denied that. The rest of the EU doesn't want it. it's not in their interests. They don't get anything from it, they just lose.

I guess the only thing that might force a renegotiation is the real threat of leaving altogether.

We may equally have no means of renegotiation but that is included. The status quo is certainly achievable.

A referendum on the outcome of an unknown negotiation is also pointless. We are expected to vote on what we cannot predict.

BobQ

A._Badger wrote: »

It is very revealing how many of those who are now so terrified of even the prospect of our leaving the EU were vocal advocates of our joining the Euro.

Who are you referring to?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Conrad wrote: »

But we will be able to renegotiate some powers back and thus become more competetive. For example on labour markets.

Nonsense.

There will be no negotiation.

Cameron, and Britain, would be humiliated by the refusal of the EU to negotiate anything meaningful, and we'd look like a petulant child sulking as the government of the day frantically U-turned on the wording to make sure we stayed in anyway.

And for the next 4-5 years, the uncertainty over our future will cost us billions in lost inward investment and tens or hundreds of thousands of jobs.

And all this, in a desperate effort to court votes from the far right in a vain and futile attempt not to lose an election that is already lost for them.

It's politics of the worst, shallowest, and most self serving kind, that puts at risk the economy and job creating at the worst possible time.

Absolutely unforgivable.

A._Badger

BobQ wrote: »

Who are you referring to?

The political classes in general and, most notably, pundits from the media - notably the Europhile loons at the BBC, Indie, Grauniad, FT et al

globalds

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I don't care if it's a right, left, middle, or loony party that offers it.

I've NEVER been offered my say, or vote. Neither have half the electorate.

Why should I be denied that?

Please explain to me, why I should be denied my vote? It will probably be to stay in, by the way.

I'd be very interested in your argument as to why you should campaign against others having a say. Others who pay their taxes, of which some of their taxes will go to the EU. Others who are directly influenced by EU rulings.

Is there a convincing argument? This is democracy in action, and I do wish we saw more of it.

I am not campaigning against anything and you seek to put something onto my agenda that was only ever in your mind.

I do think that the Tories are not doing it for the right of you or any one else to be doing the job they are democratically elected to do
Or that it will be anything close to Democracy in action.
neither side appears to want an end to the status quo

It is the people who word the choices, who seem to have the real power in referendums.