can i contest a box junction violation due to poor visibility?

londonTiger

Sgt_Pepper wrote: »

What will taking photos at some point in the future prove?

that it's faded right now.

londonTiger

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The internal yellow lines must go into at least two corners of the box, as shown in the diagrams below.[/FONT]

box has 4 corners, 2 lines clearly do not go into a corner. One does but the other one is iffy.

Would the corner below be regarded as going into a corner? I can see the right angle of where the two borders meet, and the internal line does not meet there.

londonTiger

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A yellow box must be at the junction of at least two roads, a fire, police or ambulance station. Thus for example a yellow box at a bus garage exit and a road would not be valid as in this case from Haringey.[/FONT]

I can't see any emergency services stations on any of the roads. Obviously the A12 is eliminated because it's a carriageway. But on lochnagar street & zetland street there are no police, fire or ambulance services that I can see.

This is not clear to me.

is it saying that the boc junction must be at a junction of two roads.

Or just one road at the entry and exit of emergency services?

Any chance of a workaround because the junction is between a minor road (looks like an industrial estate) and a carriageway.

Sgt_Pepper_2

londonTiger wrote: »

that it's faded right now.

It's the day of the offence that counts not when you get round to taking some.

vaio

maybe I've missed them but I can't see any enforcement cameras

steve-L

londonTiger wrote: »

Ok, that's something new. I thought you actually visibally had to see a clear exit before going through a box junction. When I entered the junction the traffic was moving albeit slowly. After I was driving through it it stopped. I stopped near the other side of the box about 1 car length away from the edge of the box on the other side.

What I might do is go there once more and take photos of the box, and also check if there are cameras there. I may be just creating a mountain out of a molehill and I have not been spotted/photographed there - so nothing to worry about.

If the traffic was actually moving as you entered you might not even get a PCN. TfL have lost a lot of appeals over that one so far as I can tell*.

*Problem being you can search by date on the PATAs site, didn't see a way when I was looking for a particular location.
In terms of geometry, markings etc. IF you find a successful appeal for YOUR junction and they didn't rectify it then you should be on a home straight.

The emergency services provision is usually right opposite (as they come out of a station onto the road)

Any chance of a workaround because the junction is between a minor road (looks like an industrial estate) and a carriageway.

I guess if its a private road that might make a difference?

However, from everything you said the traffic NOT being stopped when you entered sounds the best bet?

From every successful appeal I have seen they are all on technicalities. Non seem to have been won on grounds of 'reasonable' or 'safe at the time'. (Of course I've just seen a few but ....)

JimmyTheWig

londonTiger wrote: »

This is not clear to me.

is it saying that the boc junction must be at a junction of two roads.

Or just one road at the entry and exit of emergency services?

It's saying that a box junction between two roads is valid.
A box junction beween, say, a road and a fire station is valid.
A box junction just on a road with nothing else of relevance (e.g. a bus garage) isn't valid.

NBLondon

Well - having driven over there almost every working day for 4 1/2 years I can confirm the lines are pretty faded. I can also confirm that in the evening rush hour it's not unusual for someone to change lanes as they cross the junction. Yes - there are always idiots trying to get over to the right to be a car length of three ahead at the next lights.

However, if flashed - I think you're gonna lose. If you claim you didn't see the box junction, you may leave yourself open to other charges. Especially if the court asks whether you drive that route regularly and thus might already know there was one there. If you want to claim the junction isn't correctly painted so invalid - you'r gonna need some specialist advice and may still lose if you come up against an awkward magistrate or whatever...

lister

londonTiger wrote: »

If it makes any difference traffic was green at all times (for me). I had to stop in the junction and then free to move on without the lights changing. So I don't think I denied the flow of traffic from the sides.

No difference at all. You shouldn't enter a junction if your exit isn't clear, regardless of the lights' colour. A box junction simply reinforces that and makes prosecution simpler through a specific a more easily proved offence.

steve-L

lister wrote: »

No difference at all. You shouldn't enter a junction if your exit isn't clear, regardless of the lights' colour. A box junction simply reinforces that and makes prosecution simpler through a specific a more easily proved offence.

The relevance is if the light stopped other vehicles at the exact moment londontiger ENTERED the junction.

Jennings v Transport for London (PATAS Case no. MV0285GT01)

The local authority issued a Penalty Charge Notice, asserting that the vehicle entered and stopped in a yellow box junction when prohibited.

The local authority relied on contemporaneous videotape, which did show the vehicle approaching the box junction and substantially crossing it, so that the vehicle could draw up at the lights beyond the box as the first vehicle in the queue. However, because of the length of the vehicle, part of it was left in the yellow box.

The Regulations provided that “no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles”. The contravention is only established when the subject vehicle stops due to the presence of stationary vehicles. In this case the vehicle stopped in order to comply with a red light. The contravention was therefore not established.

The Adjudicator was not satisfied that the local authority had accurately asserted in the Penalty Charge Notice the contravention. The function of a Penalty Charge Notice was to make an allegation so that the recipient was aware of the allegation against them and in a position to deny or accept it. Here the local authority failed to assert an essential element of the allegation, namely that the vehicle stopped due to the presence of stationary vehicles. Where there are other reasons for stopping (as here) the allegation was not made out. It was vital that an allegation was correctly stated – otherwise a recipient might well concede an allegation where an essential element was not made out.

Appeal allowed.