can i contest a box junction violation due to poor visibility?

muckybutt

londonTiger wrote: »

But is it faint enough to argue that it was not visible. I honestly think that it's not bright enough to grab your attention say 20-30 meters awy, it only becomes noticeable enough once you're in the box.

From the video it was quite clear from at least 3 - 4 car lengths before the stop line, so I cant see that getting you anywhere to be honest. You were not paying proper attention it has to be said that even if you were up the car in front of you's !!!! then you should still have seen the box junc in your peripheral vision.

Your only recourse would be to go down an appeal route for some kind of procedural cockup either in the paperwork or with the box junction itself as quite a few are marked incorrectly etc

I would goto pepipoo and seek advice on there. There are a few of the regulars on there that are bang on with BJ appeals.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

londonTiger

I agree it is visible if you're looking for it. But when driving during rush hour you have quite a bit more things to look out for. Traffic lights are always changing. Drivers are less kind to people who want to slide in front of them so less likely to give way etc. You have to plan your road positions to make sure you're in the right place for your exit lane. You have to check your wing mirrors much more frequently as motocycle drivers weave inbetween traffic - which actually was a big issue becasue there were motocyclists wizzing through constantly because of the gridlock. So when the road markings are so feint they're much easier to miss.

E,g, a cyclist wearing dark clothes at night is visible to the naked eye but is it easily noticeable? That it sticks out in your peripheral vision? i doubt it. You might be able to see a cyclist in dark clothing at night when it's 2-3 car lengths in front. But it doesn't leave much room for planning

lister

londonTiger wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=did57jUsCsQ
offending box juction around 3:58 mark

I don't have any trouble seeing the box to be honest - I can't even see any breaks in the lines due to traffic wear from the camera angle at least. Painted markings are hard to see in the dark and/or wet in particular, but that doesn't give you a legally viable excuse (especially not when backed up by traffic lights - where you shouldn't cross the stop line unless your exit is clear anyway regardless of the box).

And I'll bite over your initial opening...

I don't see how you can reasonably expect to get away with point 2 above though. It isn't a silly traffic violation. What you did, however accidently, blocked a junction, denying other traffic the chance to proceed correctly with their journey. That is what box junctions are designed to stop, and it is hardly unreasonable for this to be enforced.

Incidentally, you won't want to hear it, but I wouldn't use the video in evidence when you take this to court to try and get it overturned. I saw three reasonably prosecutable traffic offences (including two occasions passing through amber lights you could have stopped at - which a magistrate might take to demonstrate a normal tendency to try and force through junctions regardless), and a fourth which a really narky copper with nothing better to do might decide to have a dig at.

steve-L

londonTiger wrote: »

Ok the original thread is here

I have started a new thread because this forum is full of busybodies who like to have a go at people. I'm not asking you for you opinion on "safe driving" - you weren't there, you have no business giving an opinion on the matter when it hasn't been asked for it.

Certainly from my side it's nothing I judge safe or unsafe, merely what can be used in an appeal.....

1) I understand that I have violated the rules and do not want to be lectured here about this.

Actually you may not have..... that's the point.

2) I feel (like most people) that a £130 penalty is wholly unjustified for a traffic violation that's silly and made primarily for revenue collection
3) I am, like most people here, on a bit of a budget, so I want to wiggle out of this one.

Erm. completely understand ....

The traffic was start stopping constantly.

Yes, and also STARTING.
The offence is entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited.
So if you entered and the traffic WAS NOT STOPPED no offence....
1mpg is not stopped! (Not sure what is but usually it seems no movement in one video frame of 1/25th sec)

I got caught unawares as my attention was focused on keeping a 6ft or less gap with the car in front to avoid being cut in. So I ended up being trapped in a box junction

Hence you might have missed a whole load of technicalities that let you wriggle out.

Box junction is quite faded and it was around 5-6pm after work when it was really dark so visibility was poor.

Worth a shot, also if the geometry of the box junction is not correct. This has provided several people a way out in appeal!

I have gone through the location again during the day and recorded the road on my video camera. It is clear that the markings are really faint. But is it faint enough to argue that it was not visible. I honestly think that it's not bright enough to grab your attention say 20-30 meters awy, it only becomes noticeable enough once you're in the box.

I reckon that is last resort.... search all the successful PATAS appeals ... something you might fall back on.

http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/yellow.htm

http://www.logiclaw.co.uk/pages/Steve.html



Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=did57jUsCsQ offending box juction around 3:58 mark

p.s. listening to podcast, not me speaking.[/QUOTE]

Sgt_Pepper_2

Lets just have the two threads merged since he didn't bother to respond to the original one.

londonTiger

lister wrote: »

What you did, however accidently, blocked a junction, denying other traffic the chance to proceed correctly with their journey. That is what box junctions are designed to stop, and it is hardly unreasonable for this to be enforced.

If it makes any difference traffic was green at all times (for me). I had to stop in the junction and then free to move on without the lights changing. So I don't think I denied the flow of traffic from the sides.

londonTiger

steve-L wrote: »

Yes, and also STARTING.
The offence is entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited.
So if you entered and the traffic WAS NOT STOPPED no offence....
1mpg is not stopped! (Not sure what is but usually it seems no movement in one video frame of 1/25th sec)

Ok, that's something new. I thought you actually visibally had to see a clear exit before going through a box junction. When I entered the junction the traffic was moving albeit slowly. After I was driving through it it stopped. I stopped near the other side of the box about 1 car length away from the edge of the box on the other side.

What I might do is go there once more and take photos of the box, and also check if there are cameras there. I may be just creating a mountain out of a molehill and I have not been spotted/photographed there - so nothing to worry about.

Sgt_Pepper_2

steve-L wrote: »

You seem to be missing the point.
Show one appeal for a box junction that was successful when the person making the appeal stated "I entered the box junction because I deemed it was safe, even though I had no exit"

You will be unlikely to find one because TfL's representative will maintain that they (TfL) decide if that box junction is required...
... it's a pointless track to defend.

However, you will find several where the traffic was not stationary when the appealer entered, the markings were technically incorrect or the appealer said they intended to turn right or the appealer said they could have left but didn't bother. (As if you can leave no offence)

The offence is Entering and Stopping in a box junction (when prohibited)... not stopping in a box junction.

Arguments over if it was safe or not safe are just pointless. Even if the OP proves it was he still committed the offence.

You're the one missing the point on this thread.

londonTiger

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=blackwall+tunnel&hl=en&ll=51.517835,-0.009637&spn=0.000313,0.002064&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&hnear=Blackwall+Tunnel,+London,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=51.517835,-0.009637&panoid=Qa9yp3PuVPm7Zo-CwUFZVw&cbp=12,157.64,,0,19.77


The google maps picture of the box juction is here, it looks a lot brighter than how it is today. based on the picture it looks like it isn't meeting the kerb on one corner (the curved edge pedestrian crossing is away from the kerb by at least 2 ft it seems.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As is the case for all markings, yellow boxes must be clearly visible and not worn. Case [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 211055173A was won at Archway Road / Jacksons Lane against TfL on this basis. [/FONT]

source: http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/yellow.htm

I'm going to go down there and take actual camera photos of the junction at some point in future.

Sgt_Pepper_2

What will taking photos at some point in the future prove?