Flight delay and cancellation compensation, BA ONLY

spiralshape

Thanks for the reply. The 1st class tickets are certainly justifiable, as I tried three tickets websites (UK, Swiss and Italian) all with the same result, and still went for the cheapest. The first train departed only an hour after the flight was scheduled to land, the second train had no seats at all, the third only had first class and the one(s) after wouldn't have enabled us to get to Germany that night. I searched around but without progress and it got to the point where we started to worry that even the 1st class tickets might sell out as well leaving us stuck in Milan. Having checked today, the price difference was about €460 vs €290.

Those links are definitely helpful in giving me something concrete to quote/reference in another follow-up email. Should I claim compensation via the same email or write separately? It's not clear if they're separate processes or should be dealt with under one claim. Is the £220/passenger regardless of two being under 18?

I guessed it was going to be a dragged out process. In case it's not obvious, their replies contain zero information about rights or ways to contest decisions. Does the eight weeks start from the initial submission of the claim, their response or my first reply to their response?

eskbanker

spiralshape said:

Those links are definitely helpful in giving me something concrete to quote/reference in another follow-up email. Should I claim compensation via the same email or write separately? It's not clear if they're separate processes or should be dealt with under one claim.

Not sure to be honest, but would probably favour mentioning it within the existing channel of communication and only open another claim if they advise you to (or fail to address it).

spiralshape said:

Is the £220/passenger regardless of two being under 18?

I believe so, and don't see any reference to it only applying to adult passengers - kids are just as inconvenienced by delays and cancellations and pay for tickets (so maybe non-paying infants would be excluded).

spiralshape said:

Does the eight weeks start from the initial submission of the claim, their response or my first reply to their response?

Before making an application, please check that the following conditions have been met:

• You have already complained to the airport/airline in the first instance
• At least eight weeks have passed since you first complained to them or you have received a final response (deadlock) letter
• [...]

https://www.cedr.com/consumer/aviation/make-a-complaint/

mdann52

I'm normally seen as the negative one here, as forwarning, but I don't think BA are obliged to refund your 1st class train fare.

Looking at the service levels on Italian trains, 1st class is more likely Club Europe. UK261 requires them to reroute you "under comparable transport conditions", which means the same class, and they aren't obliged to upgrade you to complete your journey quicker.

In this case, from BAs POV, you've self-booked an upgraded journey, which they don't wish to cover. If this went to court, I can't see a judge awarding the costs of first class tickets back under UK261, but you might have more luck under the Montreal Convention to reclaim these costs, if there was genuinely no alternatives and BA were at fault for the delay.

Yes, you can claim for under 18s, as long as they are paying passengers (ie not on a free ticket, such as under 2's)

eskbanker

mdann52 said:

I'm normally seen as the negative one here, as forwarning, but I don't think BA are obliged to refund your 1st class train fare.

Looking at the service levels on Italian trains, 1st class is more likely Club Europe. UK261 requires them to reroute you "under comparable transport conditions", which means the same class, and they aren't obliged to upgrade you to complete your journey quicker.

In this case, from BAs POV, you've self-booked an upgraded journey, which they don't wish to cover. If this went to court, I can't see a judge awarding the costs of first class tickets back under UK261, but you might have more luck under the Montreal Convention to reclaim these costs, if there was genuinely no alternatives and BA were at fault for the delay.

While I did suggest that there may be some reluctance from BA to refund first class train travel, it seems that their starting position is a blanket denial of any liability to reimburse any costs of the transfer to the final destination, i.e. they didn't even offer a second class fare and falsely assert that their liability ends in Milan:

spiralshape said:

I received a reply which stated that BA wouldn't pay any of the costs of transferring from Milan to our original destination in Basel: "...we can't reimburse the cost of your train and credit card charges...This is because we are only legally responsible for the cost of the flight itself, plus a a few other related expenses..."

As in OP's last post, there seems to be a reasonable case that the first class train booking was justifiable, given the lack of appropriate alternatives, and if it did go to court I think there are at least two other factors that should be brought into play:

1. The rerouting isn't just "under comparable transport conditions" but also needs to be "at the earliest opportunity", so if BA were to contend that OP could have incurred lower costs by hanging around, that's not what the regulations envisage.
2. It's actually the airline's responsibility to make the necessary arrangements, and in this case they have singularly failed in their legal obligations.  That's not unusual in itself, but is likely to count against them if OP was replaying the entire saga to a judge, highlighting BA's lack of compliance in other aspects too.

My suspicion remains that BA will concede, or that CEDR will find in OP's favour, but it'll be interesting to learn how it plays out if it did reach court....

mdann52

eskbanker said:

1. The rerouting isn't just "under comparable transport conditions" but also needs to be "at the earliest opportunity", so if BA were to contend that OP could have incurred lower costs by hanging around, that's not what the regulations envisage.

My reading of the legislation is that this is a "and" requirement, not an "or". So the airline aren't required to reroute you earlier just because there is availability in a higher class.

I agree it would make an interesting test case however!

I agree that BA have failed in their obligations to reroute, but I don't think that changes the legal grounds to reclaim those costs

eskbanker

mdann52 said:

eskbanker said:

1. The rerouting isn't just "under comparable transport conditions" but also needs to be "at the earliest opportunity", so if BA were to contend that OP could have incurred lower costs by hanging around, that's not what the regulations envisage.

My reading of the legislation is that this is a "and" requirement, not an "or". So the airline aren't required to reroute you earlier just because there is availability in a higher class.

That's not how the EU interpretative guidelines see it:

when using another air carrier or an alternative mode of transport for the part of the journey not completed as planned, the total travel time should, if possible, be as reasonably close as possible to the scheduled travel time of the original journey in the same or higher class of carriage if necessary

so I don't think BA could legitimately argue that it would have been reasonable to expect OP to wait for the next train with second class availability.

mdann52 said:
I agree that BA have failed in their obligations to reroute, but I don't think that changes the legal grounds to reclaim those costs

I take your point but think the issue needs to be seen in the round, i.e. by breaching the regulations, this does have an impact on how that journey is arranged (by non-experts who aren't responsible for doing so) and ultimately paid for, so, given BA's failure to arrange accommodation too, I still believe that OP would be able to capitalise on this in the event of it reaching a court.

spiralshape

mdann52 said:

Looking at the service levels on Italian trains, 1st class is more likely Club Europe. UK261 requires them to reroute you "under comparable transport conditions", which means the same class, and they aren't obliged to upgrade you to complete your journey quicker.

To be clear, this wasn't a situation of wanting to complete it quicker to have a bit more holiday. Our final destination was 100 km on from Basel and this was more about arriving at our accommodation this side of midnight and avoiding requiring a late-night private taxi for the last 40 km of the onward journey. In terms of the principle, if the last available train of the day were 1st class, I can't see that they could insist you slept at the station/paid for your own accommodation and travel the next day when it was cheaper, which I guess is covered in those guidelines given above.

As for comparable transport conditions, for 1st class on this train you got: bigger seats/leg room, power sockets, air-con and a bit more space for luggage. Food or drink you had to go and buy yourself from the catering carriage same as if you were in standard class. Not even a complimentary drink and snack like BA gave out on the way back, so apart from the legroom I wouldn't say it was some vast upgrade on a plane trip.

(On that last part, I'm not even considering whether we should be entitled to claim for any of the food/drink we had to buy for what was a ~13 hour journey from Heathrow to Basel.)

eskbanker said:

My suspicion remains that BA will concede, or that CEDR will find in OP's favour, but it'll be interesting to learn how it plays out if it did reach court....

Well obviously for me I'd rather it didn't have to go that far if it can be helped. But whatever else I'll keep this updated, although I daresay it'll be a while between posts given BA's pace.

ashthekid

Hi,

I have had BA cancel upcoming flights from London Heathrow to Ljubljana(Slovenia) over this 2024/25 Christmas time and although their online chat person said they might be rescheduling the flight they never did and it was cancelled over 2 months ago now and therefore looking increasingly unlikely they will now. No other alternative date or routes to this destination are available and the other other option is to fly from Stanstead to Trieste(Italy) which is the nearest alternative but it's on another airline Ryanair at substantially higher cost.
am I correct in thinking BA must arrange and pay for this alternative flight option given that they cannot rebook on one of their flights? Is that likely to be successful or am I best to book myself and then put a claim in for the alternative costs?
I'm not sure where I stand and it becomes slightly more complicated in that I paid for the BA flights partly with avoid points. Hence the reason why the Ryanair flight costs are no substantially higher than my original outlay.
I have already booked expensive accommodation at the destination. Do BA have to compensate for that if they refuse to arrange my alternative flights?
Please help?

eskbanker

BA are obliged to reroute you, on another airline if necessary - it would be best to put the alternative to them and see what they say, but if they refuse then you'd have a reasonable case for reimbursement if you book yourself, although you might have to fight for it.  Check out the CAA guidance on rerouting:

Re-routing in accordance with Article 8 of Regulation (EU) 261/2004

If you booked flights and accommodation separately then the airline has no liability for your accommodation costs if the trip has to be cancelled.

Auldy68

BA flight from Glasgow to Heathrow, departure time 12:10, arrived 16:15, meaning we missed connecting flight to Toronto (17:05). Claimed flight delay compensation from BA, they replied saying the delay was because “Air Traffic Control restricted operations into a block of air space your aircraft needed to travel through”
Can I appeal this, and what would be the best way to do this?
(The 13:35 on the same day, Glasgow to Heathrow left before our flight, so there were no ATC restrictions for that flight 🤷🏻)