Ubuntu v7.04 (Feisty) Released

toasterman

I don't find Ubuntu to be any faster at all.
Openoffice and Firefox both open slower on Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Mandriva and Freespire (I went through a few distributions), than they do XP or Vista. Openoffice takes ages to open on Linux, compared to Windows.

What I don't like about the command line is that yes - someone can give you lines to put in.
But if someone tells me to copy/paste this:
sudo /etc/init.d/gdm stop
How is the end user supposed to know what that does?
I know people on Linux just aimlessly trust each other, but if someone wanted to, they could give you a command to format the hard drive or anything.

And codecs is still an issue.
I ran the default audio player on Ubuntu last night, tried to open an mp3 file. It tells me it doesn't have the codec to do this, but if I want, it'll install it. It gives me a list of possible mp3 codecs, and as I've no idea what any of them are like, I pick the one (called "ugly"..something) because it has a 5-star rating from other Linux users.
It starts to play, then cuts out. I stop and start it again, same.
So I uninstalled that codec, and installed VLC, with it's codecs. I hit play.. I hear clicking, and hiss and all sorts.
The same file on Windows is fine.. no matter what player I use for it. iTunes, Winamp, windows media, all play it fine. You shouldn't have to faff about with all this just to play some music.

As for it being easier to install 3 things at once by a script, that just isn't true. Whats wrong with a gui and tick boxes?
It's not just a windows thing - it's the same on a mac. In fact, I notice Ubuntu have finally started putting things in for this in some places, but as far as I'm concerned I should never have to open a command prompt and manually edit files I don't understand.

If something needs to be modified for my graphics card to use the right refresh rate, there should be a tool to do this for me. I spent about 2 hours yesterday trying to get the damn thing higher than 60hz, then following some instructions on ubuntu's site, changed the settings manually, and restarted as I was told to. Now once I log in, my screen goes all mental.. like when you set it too high on windows...THAT is why you should do it with a gui..windows styley..with a 'test' button...so it doesn't let you screw up your display by accident.

Another hour of messing about and I fixed that again and got it to work. Then I installed Beryl, to get the fancy effects, previews etc. I not get a message on startup telling me something failed and do I want to see the log files to try and diagnose the fault?
I'll probably reload it, because I don't have another pc next to it, to post questions on ubuntu's forums and try the solutions I get back, without rebooting in/out every 10mins. I just don't see Linux is anything like usable, except for real geeks....and I'm aware that is how a lot of the Linux users like it.

One last example - if you buy a television and want to tune in the channels, I dare say you could find the exact frequencies on the net somewhere to manually set them all. OR you could have some software that scans through and finds them for you. I know which I'd rather have.

wolfman

toasterman wrote: »

I don't find Ubuntu to be any faster at all.
Openoffice and Firefox both open slower on Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Mandriva and Freespire (I went through a few distributions), than they do XP or Vista. Openoffice takes ages to open on Linux, compared to Windows.

Nooo. Open Office is definitely much faster (at least in Gnome) than in XP. Firefox offers very similar results though.

toasterman wrote: »

What I don't like about the command line is that yes - someone can give you lines to put in.
But if someone tells me to copy/paste this:
sudo /etc/init.d/gdm stop
How is the end user supposed to know what that does?
I know people on Linux just aimlessly trust each other, but if someone wanted to, they could give you a command to format the hard drive or anything.

True. but as long as you stick to official forums and guides then you'll be fine.

toasterman wrote: »

And codecs is still an issue.

Codecs shouldn't be an issue. They're very easy to setup if you spend a little time just reading up on it. You want the gstreamer codec packs. Once installed a player such as Rhymthbox will use those codecs to play the media.

Windows isn't hugely different. There are many codecs it doesn't come with and you have to find and download them online, usually in a codec pack.

toasterman wrote: »

As for it being easier to install 3 things at once by a script, that just isn't true. Whats wrong with a gui and tick boxes?

Using command line is still easier though. Like I said. Copy, paste, Enter. Done.
That's much easier to loading up a GUI and having to look through a list and check the right applications for installation.

toasterman wrote: »

I just don't see Linux is anything like usable, except for real geeks....and I'm aware that is how a lot of the Linux users like it.

It's not just for geeks. It's for people who want to take the time to learn and take control of their pc, using free software provided by the community. You've obviously not taken much time to learn it and already seem to be giving up at the first hurdle. I didn't learn Windows on my first attempt. In fact I've lots count of the hundreds of times I've re-installed, tweaked, broken, etc... Windows installs.

toasterman wrote: »

One last example - if you buy a television and want to tune in the channels, I dare say you could find the exact frequencies on the net somewhere to manually set them all. OR you could have some software that scans through and finds them for you. I know which I'd rather have.

Me too. One where the software scans for you.
Again if you look around you'll find Kaffeine does this perfectly. It's not the best solution if using Ubuntu (ie Gnome) but it works. There's also MythTv, which can be tricky to setup and is more for Media Centers than personal computer use.

toasterman

wolfman wrote: »

Nooo. Open Office is definitely much faster (at least in Gnome) than in XP. Firefox offers very similar results though.

I must admit to having spent a lot more time in Openoffice on Kubuntu and XP, than Ubuntu. Running KDE instead of Gnome may impact on the speed I guess. Once you get it open it runs about the same, but actually starting the software seems a lot slower on Kubuntu than XP.

wolfman wrote: »

True. but as long as you stick to official forums and guides then you'll be fine.

That guide I was following was (I believe.. I don't have it now as it was saved on the drive Ubuntu was installed on, which I broke, wiped and reloaded) on Ubuntu's own support forums.

wolfman wrote: »

Codecs shouldn't be an issue. They're very easy to setup if you spend a little time just reading up on it. You want the gstreamer codec packs. Once installed a player such as Rhymthbox will use those codecs to play the media.

Windows isn't hugely different. There are many codecs it doesn't come with and you have to find and download them online, usually in a codec pack.

Gstreamer ugly something...?
Thats what I installed.. and the playback was dire.
It was prompted when I tried to play an mp3 - do I want to install an mp3 codec.. yes I do.. installed.
THAT is the sort of thing I was saying they've needed for a long time.
However, the playback quality was terrible.

I'm not against free software - I've been a big fan of Winamp since it's early days - because it just worked. At no point did you have to go searching for the separate codecs though.

I'm aware of the problem on Windows - mpeg2 playback on Windows sucks 99% of the time, regardless of graphics card. Only codec I've seen that comes close to the standard I expect (like you'd get if you burnt it to a dvd and put it in a standalone player) is the Nvidia Purevideo one (a paid-for one).

Other than that though, I've never had to manually download different codecs and see if they're useless or not. If you need a codec for xvid, you go pick one up, install and it works.

wolfman wrote: »

Using command line is still easier though. Like I said. Copy, paste, Enter. Done.
That's much easier to loading up a GUI and having to look through a list and check the right applications for installation.

You're excluding the time you spent searching the web to find the right command line, and the right name for what you're installing.. (in the right UpPer.lOwer case configuration - why if you have an operating system that is case sensitive do you name things "Desktop" or with the longest possible filename?)

wolfman wrote: »

It's not just for geeks. It's for people who want to take the time to learn and take control of their pc, using free software provided by the community. You've obviously not taken much time to learn it and already seem to be giving up at the first hurdle. I didn't learn Windows on my first attempt. In fact I've lots count of the hundreds of times I've re-installed, tweaked, broken, etc... Windows installs.

I have done too for Windows. Although its very difficult to permanently screw up your resolution on Windows..for example. There's a safe mode you can go into to fix it.
There's a test button that checks to make sure its not too high before it makes it permanent.
And it works because you don't have to modify it in a text file and reboot, to see the results.

I've broken many versions of Linux many times also. I generally pick up a version of it every 3-4 months and give it a go.. At christmas, I must have tried out 3-4 different versions.
Every time though, I wind up frustrated at how complicated it still is to do the most basic tasks and realise I don't have the 6 months free time it'll take me to get it working to nearly as good as what I already have on windows.
I'd never used a mac before til last year - needless to say I got the bits fixed I needed fixed, found the information I needed, and didn't wind up feeling drained and fed up.

wolfman wrote: »

Me too. One where the software scans for you.
Again if you look around you'll find Kaffeine does this perfectly. It's not the best solution if using Ubuntu (ie Gnome) but it works. There's also MythTv, which can be tricky to setup and is more for Media Centers than personal computer use.

I was using the tv as an example...and I meant an ACTUAL tv.
Tv tuner cards are a total waste of time in that respect. It's almost impossible to get decent reliable pictures off an internal freeview card in a pc because of all the interference. And by decent, I mean to the same standard you get if you plug an external box into a capture card.

I did waste a weekend fiddling around with MythTV a month or so ago though, following their instructions, guides, kubuntu official guides to the letter etc.
Then I found KnoppMyth and tried that.
I eventually got to a point where I was tired, hungry, had a headache, and then MythTV gave me an error saying something like "unable to connect to the database - are you sure it's started?". As I had absolutely no idea and couldn't find much about the exact error, I had had enough by this point and switched to GBPVR.
Which works flawlessly by the way.
On XP.

wolfman

toasterman wrote: »

Gstreamer ugly something...?
Thats what I installed.. and the playback was dire.
It was prompted when I tried to play an mp3 - do I want to install an mp3 codec.. yes I do.. installed.
THAT is the sort of thing I was saying they've needed for a long time.
However, the playback quality was terrible.

I usually go for:

sudo apt-get install gstreamer0.10-plugins-ugly gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg gstreamer0.10-plugins-ugly-multiverse gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad-multiverse gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad-multiverse libdvdcss2 w32codecs

That should setup virtually every codec you'll need. Make sure you have the correct repositories enabled. I've now got a put together command that installs and removes around 25 apps in one go. It saves me so much time compared with using a GUI.

toasterman wrote: »

You're excluding the time you spent searching the web to find the right command line, and the right name for what you're installing.. (in the right UpPer.lOwer case configuration - why if you have an operating system that is case sensitive do you name things "Desktop" or with the longest possible filename?)

I wrote it myself. Well, cut and pasted originally parts of it. Then I save and keep it. Means I can setup again should I need to far faster than using a GUI. More along the lines of unattended/automated installs.

toasterman wrote: »

I have done too for Windows. Although its very difficult to permanently screw up your resolution on Windows..for example. There's a safe mode you can go into to fix it.
There's a test button that checks to make sure its not too high before it makes it permanent.
And it works because you don't have to modify it in a text file and reboot, to see the results.

It's quite easy to recover graphically, you just need to select "Recovery Mode" when booting and type "dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg". It'll quickly run you through resetting your graphical settings, and you'll be back within minutes.

toasterman wrote: »

I've broken many versions of Linux many times also. I generally pick up a version of it every 3-4 months and give it a go.. At christmas, I must have tried out 3-4 different versions.

True, but people break Windows too. Like I said before I've lost count the number of times I've broken or reinstalled it.

toasterman wrote: »

Every time though, I wind up frustrated at how complicated it still is to do the most basic tasks and realise I don't have the 6 months free time it'll take me to get it working to nearly as good as what I already have on windows.

Time is the cost of using an operating system that is not only faster, but free and gives you complete control. It shouldn't take 6 months though. A month maybe two and you should be fine in Linux.

toasterman wrote: »

I did waste a weekend fiddling around with MythTV a month or so ago though, following their instructions, guides, kubuntu official guides to the letter etc.
Then I found KnoppMyth and tried that.
I eventually got to a point where I was tired, hungry, had a headache, and then MythTV gave me an error saying something like "unable to connect to the database - are you sure it's started?". As I had absolutely no idea and couldn't find much about the exact error, I had had enough by this point and switched to GBPVR.
Which works flawlessly by the way.
On XP.

I agree MythTV is by no means perfect, but neither is GbPvr. It's the best option for personal use on XP, but I wouldn't use it in a full on media center. It's still got bugs, mainly relating to stability and speed. If you get MythTv working you'll find it to be a much better and powerful alternative. The trick with building a MythTv based box, is to pick the right hardware.

kingmonkey

Vista is best end of

Skint1

This is not a go at windows. I have 4 computers at home. 3 run XP and I use Ubuntu. I started using Ubuntu about 18 months ago and yes it took a bit of learning but its worth it. I only get help from the Ubuntu forum .http://ubuntuforums.org/
This is a big forum and I've always have found answers or got the help I needed. My other computers will be running Ubuntu when the time comes. Why pay for an OS ? The time I spent learning Ubuntu has been paid back I have a stable computer that's not as vulnerable to viruses or slowed by spyware.
To install loads of stuff automatically use http://www.getautomatix.com/ as was mentioned earlier. Use whatever OS you like. But Linux is getting better every release.

VebGuy

Linux is like learning a whole new language (like Russian or something) but Ubuntu have made it easier for newbies. It's worth perservering though since with familiarity it gets easier. The reason I use Ubuntu is because it is free and cocks a snook at the whole big biz corporate world of Microsoft. Needless to say I also use XP but in the long term I plan to be exclusively Linux.
My laptop is dual boot - XP and Ubuntu, and Ubuntu is set with bouth Gnome and KDE desktops. Amazingingly, Ubuntu worked out of the box for both wired and wireless networking. Not so good with printer support though.
In it's way, using Linux seems to chime with the ethic of MSE.
Give it a try but you must put some effort in.

toasterman

I'm not sure I'm ever going to be convinced but I thank everyone for their replies.
I just don't really see the benefits of Linux. Even Linux experts (I was reading on a Linux-review-site) admit it takes a lot longer than Windows to get running and doing basic tasks.
It is more stable and secure, but I don't have a problem with spyware or viruses on XP. The only people who do are people who download adware/spyware or a lot of illegal software...I've got a hardware firewall and AVG on here - but aside from that, I'm not going to be paranoid about it.

I did buy a new printer a month or so ago, and the one I bought was because it has support on Windows, Mac and Linux. I'm also attracted to software that has been ported to all three - Thunderbird, Firefox, and Audacity..for example.

Microsoft have released a couple of XP updates lately that have caused more problems than they've solved, but after searching online - this has happened with Linux before too.

Considering how easy it is to get Linux installed and open an rdp thin client, if I was in charge of a business/school, I'd never buy Windows/office for every pc - but I'd probably have it on the server.
Also, as a lot of it's software has been ported to Windows, I have ended up indirectly better off, and I thank Linux'ers for that.

There is a lot of things in Vista that has been ripped from Linux/Mac I was interested to see.
Someone should make a distribution of Linux that already has Beryl installed (or have it as an option during install on Ubuntu/Kubuntu) and setup....because it looks good from the screenshots and seems comparable to Vista (but probably using less ram, hard disk, etc), but I didn't manage to get it installed. That is what I was doing after I get my resolution sorted, which went horribly wrong.

I might see if I can get a book on Ubuntu. It's all well and good to say the forum is a great place to ask when you have problems - but I'd spend half my time rebooting back into windows to actually get to the forums.

wolfman

Once you've done maybe a dozen installs, you should be quite quick and confident at installing Linux (Ubuntu). It takes a while to find a few fixes for odd bits of hardware, but once you have it's quite easy second time round.

The main problems for me are:
- Poor driver support in terms of ATI. NVidia are ok, still not perfect, but nowhere near as bad as ATI.
- Few "gem" apps on Windows not on Linux. Intel TAT, Core Temp, AutoGK etc...
- Like you mentioned, some releases aren't great or can introduce bugs. I spent just over an hour yesterday working out the fix for something that worked in the previous release (Edgy). Although it relates to ATI so is related to the first point.

The great things about Linux for me:
- Once you get it running that's it. It'll virtually run and run with little performance loss, whereas Windows does start dip and require maintenance.
- If using something like EXT3 instead or NTFS, you'll find you won't need to defragment (or at least maybe once in a blue moon).
- When I first switched some of the apps in Windows I preferred, or were more familiar with, but I got used to the Linux versions and now find them to be great if not better in some cases.
- No Viruses, Anti-Spyware etc... Makes things so much more relaxed, and no background scanning. Viruses and Anti-Spyware don't just come from dodgy sites, you can pick them up all over the place, even included in software. But with Linux this is never the case.
- The repository system of managing/installing/updating applications. Makes it so much easier to stay up to date across the board.


Beryl isn't quite at the stable release yet. Very close. Also, Compiz (the Beryl equivalent) is "considered" more stable than Beryl by some of the community. I think it's actually included in Feisty under Desktop Effects. You really need an nVidia card to use it though (you'll need to install XGL for it to work with an ATI).

MadCowMan

Lack of ATI support is a bit of a show stopper for me - Software should work with hardware , not vice versa.

I like lots of things about linux ( the aformentioned repository system etc. ) but I guess for me the cons outweigh the pros as far as its use for a desktop system goes. I still quite like it in terms of a server OS though