Static caravans/ mobile homes warning !

Eydon

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

That sounds like a different scheme to the ones pushed by various caravan parks that we've been to on holiday.

Sorry - I must have got the wrong end of the stick.

I didn't realise that the OP was referring to some scheme - I just thought they were on about the owning a static caravan in general.

codger

Sorry, OP, but whilst I sympathise enormously with you -- and really, you should now follow the sensible advice given here by rock-on -- your situation should not be taken by anyone reading this thread as somehow being typical of everyone's experience of static holiday caravans and holiday park owners.

Here are some hard cash facts of our time as van owners (and no: we have absolutely no connection with any park owners or the static van / holiday home industry):

We'd never had a touring van so our first experience of any caravan at all was the purchase in 2006 of a beautiful 1997 Atlas Oakwood 35ft 3-bedroom static van at a cost £10,600. The van was on an immaculate privately owned, privately run semi-residential park in East Anglia with amenities including outdoor pool, indoor heated pool, miniten courts, boules / petanque and super clubhouse and bar.

We paid £300 a year membership (the park is run as a club) and £1,200 a year site fees. No rates were payable (but no sub-letting, either.) Between 2006 and two months ago, when we sold our van, we must have spent many, many months on holiday there, wonderful times with lots of new-found friends.

The £1,500 total annual fee payable to the park in 2006 had increased to £1,850 in 2012so for the period 2006-2012 (seven "holiday years") we spent around £11,550 on site fees.

We sold our van via the park owners in September for £9,800, from which the ownerws deducted £2,000 commission, so we "lost" £2,800 on our van.

In total, therefore, at an average of, let's say, two months' use per year (4 x 2 week holidays) = 7 years x 2 months = 14 months, we enjoyed 1 year and 2 months' holidays at a cost of around £11,200 total site fees + £2,800 loss-of-value on the van = £14,000, an outlay of £2,000 per year for seven years that financed a total of 56 weeks' holidays at an equivalent of £250 per week.

Was that a good and fair deal? Yes. Especially when it's appreciated that our £2,000 a year outlay is probably amongst the lowest annual outlays paid by holiday van owners in the UK today. (But even £2,000 a year seems high, especially when you're forking it out on a monthly Direct Debit and can't use your van between the end of October and the beginning of March every year because of the holiday parks seasonal opening and closing times. . .)

But we wouldn't have gone into that park had the figures been any different, figures which we costed out in advance along with all the home-work we undertook *before* committing to purchase. (One fairly obvious question we asked was: it's our van, so we can presumably insure it with whoever we want? The answer was "yes". Had it been "no", we'd have told them to stuff it. Simple as that. (It never ceases to surprise me that so many others just blithely accept.)

Sadly though, the mobile home and static van magazines often feature letters from people victimized by restrictive terms, extortionate practices, exorbitant annual pitch fees and management charges, age / usage limitations, etc etc. . .

. . . Because they themselves signed up to all those costs and restrictions in the first place.

No-one made them go to a particular park. No-one made them neglect to ask sensible questions or do some sensible arithmetic. And if anyone was crass enough to tell them that a tin shed in a field can ever, ever be an appreciating asset, then surely. . . wouldn't the prospective buyers' own commonsense have told them that such talk is obviously nonsense????

As noted, I am sorry for what happened to you but your experience shouldn't be taken by anyone else as somehow typical of park jhome / holiday van "life". There are, literally, hundreds of holiday parks in the UK which are run on honest and straightforward lines and which don't seek to exploit or extort.

Where so much goes wrong in this particular sector is with buyers -- not you, OP: I don't know enough to comment, nor would I do so anyway -- who entertain utterly bonkers notions about "value" and "cost".

Truth is, a tin shed in a field is a tin shed in a field is a tin shed in a field, and it doesn't matter if it's a cheapo one bedroom static van or one of those luxurious "Tingdene" things made up of two static vans joined together and delivered fully furnished from the factory.

They are NOT financial investments because they do NOT appreciate in value. They are, however -- or can and should be -- delightful investments in a family's holiday pleasure.

We had a great time at our tin shed in a field in a forest. It cost us £14,000 in seven holiday years. We don't regret one penny of that because no-one can ever truly put a price on great times, great memories and great friendships.

I hope you're able to get your current situation sorted out but would ask anyone reading this thread to realise that if you view a tin shed in a field as a fun place to be for a few family holidays, then that's great. View it as anything other than that -- or fail to do any home-work in advance of purchase -- and both you and your wallet will likely suffer mightily.

JimmyTheWig

Eydon wrote: »

Sorry - I must have got the wrong end of the stick.

I didn't realise that the OP was referring to some scheme - I just thought they were on about the owning a static caravan in general.

What I am saying is that all the holiday parks that I have been to (mainly Haven) have all heavily advertised the benefits of buying your own van on their site - one of the big benefits is that you can let out your van. I think the phrase they normally use is to cover your site fees. Often these parks will help with (or even guarantee) finding holidaymakers to fill your van for the first year.

It's something we consider every time we go. They look so nice. The idea is very appealing. But the numbers just don't stack up for us, so it's a no.

That's my experience of "owning a static caravan in general". It's "in general" because that's all I see. It's not a "scheme" as such, just the way it works. I accept that there are other ways of it working out there, but I think the OP has bought on a site similar to the ones that we have been to. I wouldn't be surprised if (like me) that's all they've ever seen and so to them, too, this is what they are like "in general".

It seems that your experience, and that of codger, is very different. It seems that there are other types of places to those that we have been to. They seem ideal, in fact. Exactly the sort of thing I wuold be interested in if money allowed.

Helen27

Thank you for your post Eydon.
May I confirm you were told at point of sale that your
Caravan would be sold for the trade value and at point of sale you were given the trade value ?
If not after say 7 months you would accept an £8000 loss yet still go ahead with the sale ? Which is my case ? Or like spiderspoon have to walk away ?
Could you check this out with your site what will happen if you need to sell AND GET IT IN WRITING. You also mention you have to sell it back to the site ... What if they arnt buying ? If you have to sell privately will your park load the site fees with £500 and charge you 15% commission plus vat that you already paid when you first purchased ?
In my experience the problems come when you want to sell.in this instance I have till 2019 for the caravan to be on site.please let us all know what will happen if you want to sell. Please be careful. Kind regards.

Eydon

Helen,
When I bought my van I checked around that the price they were asking was a fair reflection of the current market value (I was buying a used van). It was, so I was happy. I also took the opportunity to talk to some of the existing owners - some who had been residents on the site from the very beginning.

If I choose to sell my van early then yes, they will be buying, because there is a waiting list of people wanting to join the site. I would expect to get given the trade-in value, just like I would if I sold my car to a car dealer. I don't know what that trade-in value will be because I don't know when I will be selling the van. If the unthinkable happens and they actually refuse to buy then I have the option of selling privately or taking my van away (it's my van afterall).

And I'm not sure why you keep referring to getting stuff in writing - it's all in the contract I was given when I bought the van. Was yours not?

It really does sound like you have been badly bitten over this, and I do sympathise. I was just trying to point out that it's not all doom and gloom out there. There are some respectable sites.

Helen27

Hi Eydon

Some of what you say sounds familiar but I am many steps ahead. Yes I do say get things in writing. I'm trying to help others by creating awareness.

If your site is a great site can you name it. ? Point people in the right direction. I too can sell my van privately as I own it outright. But who ever buys it will be loaded simply because the park is there to make money. They make money in caravan sales. They do not make money from private sales apart from the 15% commission they ask plus 20%vat. A bit rich when you can't even advertise on site and that's double vat as vat was paid at the outset ! Is that fair ?!
I only say be careful. Kind regards

Helen27

Hi Jimmythe wig

Be strong !! Don't do it !! Don't be sucked in! They are salesmen!
They won't tell you what I have, try it , let us know what they say!
Apples must be compared with apples. My van is not a new one.
Ask Martin if spending £20 000 on a mobile home is a good investment.
Kind regards

Helen27

Hi codger
Thanks for your great post. You speak a lot of sense.
And I'm pleased it worked for you. You are however in the minority.
One only has to speak to NACO to know the horror stories.
I only want to make people aware of WHAT COULD HAPPEN WHEN IT COMES TO SELLING.
You had time. I didn't. Irrespective I purchased as I was happy that the park would purchase the caravan back. They did not mention amongst many other things anything about trade values or the trade book nor is this in the rule book.
Please mention your site. Why did you sell if it was so good? Bored of the same place over and over ? Kind regards.

JimmyTheWig

Helen27 wrote: »

Hi Jimmythe wig

Be strong !! Don't do it !! Don't be sucked in! They are salesmen!

Oh, don't worry. I won't get sucked in by salesmen.
We would only do it if the numbers worked for us. I'm a mathematician and do my own numbers. I wouldn't trust them to crunch the numbers even if I _didn't_ think they had a vested interest!

I like the sound of the no-subletting sites. I know this means you can't make money from it, but it sounds like they are cheaper all round so you don't need to.
It also takes a lot of the variables away from the decision. If there is no subletting then it is just a case of costing us what it costs. Which we can't afford right now, but maybe one day in the future...

codger

Helen27 wrote: »

Hi codger
Thanks for your great post. You speak a lot of sense.
And I'm pleased it worked for you. You are however in the minority.
One only has to speak to NACO to know the horror stories.
I only want to make people aware of WHAT COULD HAPPEN WHEN IT COMES TO SELLING.
You had time. I didn't. Irrespective I purchased as I was happy that the park would purchase the caravan back. They did not mention amongst many other things anything about trade values or the trade book nor is this in the rule book.
Please mention your site. Why did you sell if it was so good? Bored of the same place over and over ? Kind regards.

Helen: You've had a terrible experience but you'll hopefully be able to attain redress by recourse to civil action. Not unnaturally, you're feeling angry and hurt and are being truly generous of spirit in seeking to warn others of dangers and pitfalls.

But -- and it's a big "but" -- try not to let your own experience colour your advice to the point that what you're saying to others is less helpful than you intend, because comments like those above ("You are however in the minority. One only has to speak to NACO to know the horror stories.") are as short on fact as they're long on scariness.

I've no idea who this NACO is, but if you'd like to ask it for a genuine research-based total of the number of privately owned holiday vans and holiday homes on holiday parks in the UK, and the total number of 'horror stories' in respect of all those vans and homes, you should be able to get a much clearer idea of the ratio of good to, er, horrific.

Being passionate about a subject so as to help others is about as good as any human being can get but sometimes, the downside to passion can be inadvertent misinformation. For instance, in both your post here and your OP, you talk about "book price" as if that's *the* determinant of resale value. It isn't. It never was. It never will be.

We paid £10,600 for our van in 2006 and sold it for £800 less six years later (September, 2012.) Our van was 9 years old when we bought it and 15 years old when we sold.

The only "book price" we've ever been aware of is for an unsited van. . . and there's one helluva difference between sited and unsited. In fact: how could any sited van be possibly valued in any kind of book anyway?? The book would have to take account of where the site was, whether the van came with decking and extras, how many amenities were on-site, etc etc.

Hence: a nigh-on 16-year-old Atlas Oakwood fetches a "book price" of around £3,000 unsited. . . but in our case, fetched almost £10,000 sited.

Why? Because the "book price" is largely irrelevant. The condition of the van. The calibre of the location. The demand for a holiday caravan home at such a location. . . they're the real factors that determine the resale price. (In truth, there ain't that much difference between buying a tin shed in a field or bricks and mortar in a suburban street: it's location, location, location.)

I know you genuinely believe that my family's static holiday van sojourn is a minority experience. But -- again -- that's not a fact, rather a reflection of the way you're feeling right now. Over the years, we've gotten to know dozens of folks in other parks and not one has experienced anything like the problems you've had.

Sadly, no industry or business sector is ever going to stop scammers and thugs invading it. But in no industry or business sector are scammers and thugs in the majority. Nor are they in the holiday parks business: at a guess, I'd reckon there must be thousands of folks in the UK who enjoy happy family holidays every year in their static van and encounter no unexpected problems (or breaches of contract, or trust) in either buying or selling.

We've sold up because we've had our fun and also, we've had enough of British summers: £2,000 a year on a static van is -- for our purposes -- much better spent on holidaying in the sun.

But I really, really would not want to put any family off the static van holiday home if they can afford the expense.

All they need to do is act the same way they would with any expensive purchase: don't jump in; spend a couple of momnths reading the van and holiday home magazines first; then do the maths and, finally, read the park's Terms & Conditions before signing. It's only commonsense. We hadn't a clue about caravans before we bought ours, didn't know anyone at all on that particular holiday park to even ask first. Instead, we did the magazine reading-up, made notes of questions to ask, then got all the answers we needed and went ahead and bought. End of story.

Best of luck with your situation -- keeping folks here up to date with how your specific case pans out would be very useful.