delicate subject - abortion

erichamster

Nicki wrote: »

But if the only issue is achieving a world without unwanted children, that could equally well be achieved by requiring all women when they reach puberty to the age of menopause to be fitted with a coil/implant/depo jab, which could only be removed if the woman signed a declaration saying she was actively trying for a baby. Then abortion could be limited only to those for whom contraception failed or where there were serious medical issues.

I am not suggesting that as a genuine solution by the way, just pointing out that all methods of achieving your objective are not "morally neutral", and in my heart, I personally don't find a woman failing to use contraception and having multiple abortions to be morally neutral either.

I do find this a complex issue though and not a black and white one my any means.

That probably would lower the number of unwanted pregnancies, however I also believe in bodily autonomy and that would not be compatible with forced contraception. I didn't say that it was my only aim, you said you thought multiple abortion were not a sign of a civilized society, I said I think a society with no unwanted children (but perhaps with abortion) would be more civilized than the one we have now.
Obviously these are projections, but there is evidence (it was featured in Freakonomics, if anyone's familiar with it) that a rise in the rate/availability of abortion results in a reduced crime rate around 20 years later. Now that's a real benefit we can all enjoy!

janninew

erichamster wrote: »

That probably would lower the number of unwanted pregnancies, however I also believe in bodily autonomy and that would not be compatible with forced contraception. I didn't say that it was my only aim, you said you thought multiple abortion were not a sign of a civilized society, I said I think a society with no unwanted children (but perhaps with abortion) would be more civilized than the one we have now.
Obviously these are projections, but there is evidence (it was featured in Freakonomics, if anyone's familiar with it) that a rise in the rate/availability of abortion results in a reduced crime rate around 20 years later. Now that's a real benefit we can all enjoy!

I think it would do more than 'probably' reduce the rate of unwanted abortions, I think it would affect the numbers dramatically if all women of child baring age had to have the depo, coil etc! Not that will ever happen thank god! I do think sometimes reading these type of threads if you are a young women (or man!) you will be scared to death about getting pregnant whilst using contraception, most, if used correctly are very effective and the majority will not get pregnant if they are careful and follow their Doctor's/Nurses advice.

Interesting last part of your paragraph, though I'm not familiar with Freakanomics!

erichamster

janninew wrote: »

I think the women who have had multiple abortions must either be mega unlucky with contraception or putting it bluntly, bloody stupid! I've never had an abortion, but i'm guessing it isn't a very pleasant experience and there must be some pain. Surely taking a pill, getting a jab etc must be less hassle at the very least.

I don't think they are necessarily stupid, most likely they have never been taught to think logically or indeed think at all, often as a result of poor parenting.

Really there will be many reasons why certain people fail to use contraception effectively. They may believe in persistant myths, ( can't get pregnant first time, standing up, if you're on your period, we did it before, didn't get pregnant, thought I was infertile, etc) live in subculture which doesn't use contraception ( just never thought about it) have little self respect or care for what happens to them, forgetting because of intoxication at the time of intercourse, having no idea how contraception works ( poor condom application, taking the pill when you remember) or just damn unlucky ( 3 or 4% of everyone is loads of people).
These are the issue we must identify and address, but until we have safe, legal abortion is a necessity.

marywooyeah

Errata wrote: »

So nobody checked your details, confirmed you were a patient, took your BP, temperature, and bloods? And nobody in the anaesthesia room spoke to you and asked you to confirm who you were and your details?

No, I only saw the Dr before being taken to the room where I was put to sleep. The anaethetist didn't ask me anything or say anything to me I was surprised when I felt the needle in my hand but obviously it was too late by then.

Again, this was raised in the meeting and the chair told me all the patient checks are carried out but not always in front of the patient - I didn't have any BP checks or blood tests, and I don't know why I should have had my temperature taken but no didn't have that either.

[text removed by MSE Forum Team]

janninew

erichamster wrote: »

I don't think they are necessarily stupid, most likely they have never been taught to think logically or indeed think at all, often as a result of poor parenting.

Really there will be many reasons why certain people fail to use contraception effectively. They may believe in persistant myths, ( can't get pregnant first time, standing up, if you're on your period, we did it before, didn't get pregnant, thought I was infertile, etc) live in subculture which doesn't use contraception ( just never thought about it) have little self respect or care for what happens to them, forgetting because of intoxication at the time of intercourse, having no idea how contraception works ( poor condom application, taking the pill when you remember) or just damn unlucky ( 3 or 4% of everyone is loads of people).
These are the issue we must identify and address, but until we have safe, legal abortion is a necessity.

Yes I do understand what you mean, but I was referring to women who have multiple abortions, surely after going through that experience once you will not want to experience it again and do your best at all costs to ensure it doesn't happen.

Not sure if women who have abortions are given an appointment after regarding contraception and finding a suitable method to reduce the risks greatly that they will have another unwanted pregnancy.

I fully agree with safe, legal abortion if you have an unwanted pregnancy, but wonder about the mentality of the women who have several (unless they are mega unlucky with contraception of course!) If I had an abortion due to a failed contraception incident, I would be straight to the Docs asking for advice and making my OH wear a condom!

erichamster

janninew wrote: »

Yes I do understand what you mean, but I was referring to women who have multiple abortions, surely after going through that experience once you will not want to experience it again and do your best at all costs to ensure it doesn't happen.

Not sure if women who have abortions are given an appointment after regarding contraception and finding a suitable method to reduce the risks greatly that they will have another unwanted pregnancy.

I fully agree with safe, legal abortion if you have an unwanted pregnancy, but wonder about the mentality of the women who have several (unless they are mega unlucky with contraception of course!) If I had an abortion due to a failed contraception incident, I would be straight to the Docs asking for advice and making my OH wear a condom!

Well if it's happening then obviously not! Never underestimate the ability of people to repeat the same behaviour over and over again, even if it is logically to their detriment and inconvenience. Of course you would up the ante so to speak with contraception after a mishap, you are already an educated woman who uses contraception routinely, in a relationship, and is able to expressly link actions with cosnsequences, it isn't you we're talking about.

Person_one

marywooyeah wrote: »

No, I only saw the Dr before being taken to the room where I was put to sleep. The anaethetist didn't ask me anything or say anything to me I was surprised when I felt the needle in my hand but obviously it was too late by then.

If you were going under you'd have had a cannula, not just an injection straight into the vein, so there'd have been a substantial gap between feeling a needle going in and actually receiving the anaesthetic through that needle after it had been inserted, secured and tested.

marywooyeah

Person One I have already stated if you don't choose to believe me that's up to you but have asked you to please stop belittling my experience.

I wish it wasn't true but it is. I am no medical expert about needles or cannulas, I can only describe what happened to me. I don't know how many more times I need to tell you explain that I recieved an apology from the hospital

My baby died and I have spent years grieving for him. It took four years before I even felt ready for counselling and I am still awaiting a referral for further help. Please stop because you have no idea what I have suffered and your continued nasty comments are ignorant and upsetting.

Fire_Fox

Nicki wrote: »

But if the only issue is achieving a world without unwanted children, that could equally well be achieved by requiring all women when they reach puberty to the age of menopause to be fitted with a coil/implant/depo jab, which could only be removed if the woman signed a declaration saying she was actively trying for a baby. Then abortion could be limited only to those for whom contraception failed or where there were serious medical issues.

I am not suggesting that as a genuine solution by the way, just pointing out that all methods of achieving your objective are not "morally neutral", and in my heart, I personally don't find a woman failing to use contraception and having multiple abortions to be morally neutral either.

I do find this a complex issue though and not a black and white one my any means.

I am for a variation on this: perhaps financially inducing those who are under 20, certain health problems (eg. addiction), anyone who has already had an abortion or reliant on benefits to use a long term method of contraception. Save the country a small fortune, reduce teenage pregnancy and associated social problems, reduce the abortion rate.

Not sure what the alternative is, we can't just reduce the availability of abortions without negatively affecting thousands of lives (mothers and babies), having a population boom and crippling the country financially. We can't afford all the maternity leave, NHS care, state benefits and additional school places.

littlerat

Hmmm, birth control is, in theory, about 1% failure for hormonal methods - around 0.1-0.3% for permanent methods (that is per year though), higher for the pill.

According to http://www.bpas.org/bpasknowledge.php?year=2009&npage=0&page=81&news=284 - pill 8% and condom 15% failure rate in typical use. As a majority of women use the pill still, well all I'm suggesting is genuine accidents may not be uncommon.

http://www.cks.nhs.uk/contraception/background_information/effectiveness_of_contraceptives

If a woman is using the pill for 10 years then the likelihood of pregnancy(ies) becomes quite high.

Here's another page with the stats too: http://www.cks.nhs.uk/contraception/background_information/effectiveness_of_contraceptives

The most effective being the IUS - which many doctors or PCTs still won't use in women who haven't given birth.



On another note, I find myself wondering if somebody who has had hormonal contraception fail once is more likely to have it happen again - ie, their hormones are not fully suited/as susceptible to the effects as they should be.