delicate subject - abortion

amus

Im just interested in what the people who are appalled by the multiple abortion figures see as the alternative?

I personally dont understand why some women would go through mulitple abortions, but I also personally do not understand why some people become drug addicts, why some people choose to gamble their life savings away, why people choose to spend £7 on a packet of fags.

Does that mean we shouldnt offer help to drug addicts, should we withdraw all NHS treatment for smoking related illness?

IMO the sex education in this country is terrible and we need to be taking a much more mature approach to educating our children at a younger age, but the pro-life lobby would probably see that as horrifying aswell.

janninew

peachyprice wrote: »

I had an abortion at 17 when I was raped by my boyfriend, I had an abortion at 37 when contraception failed 4 months after a c-section.

That makes me a statistic, but does that make me stupid, does that make you question my mentality, does that mean I shouldn't have been allowed a second abortion?

Be very careful judging people who are in the unfortunate situation of being a statistic, figures do not tell the whole story.

No I don't think it makes you stupid, having contraception failing which results in an unwanted pregnancy must be awful as I stated early. I was more referring to women who have multiple abortions due to not using contraception or not using in effectively. I never for one minute suggested anybody should be denied abortions if they wanted one, not matter why they have fallen pregnant.

heartbreak_star

Marywooyeah...if you're still feeling this bad, push for some counselling and therapy from your doctor.

HBS x

BugglyB

amus wrote: »

Im just interested in what the people who are appalled by the multiple abortion figures see as the alternative?

I personally dont understand why some women would go through mulitple abortions, but I also personally do not understand why some people become drug addicts, why some people choose to gamble their life savings away, why people choose to spend £7 on a packet of fags.

Does that mean we shouldnt offer help to drug addicts, should we withdraw all NHS treatment for smoking related illness?

IMO the sex education in this country is terrible and we need to be taking a much more mature approach to educating our children at a younger age, but the pro-life lobby would probably see that as horrifying aswell.

I have heard people advocate for forced sterilisation, all sorts. I can only think that they know not what they say...

Welshwoofs

euronorris wrote: »

Really? That's interesting. I had a copper IUD fitted here in NL, and it wasn't an issue (I've never given birth). I assumed it would be the same in the UK, but I guess not.

I was also told that they 'don't tend' to fit the IUD in women that haven't had children and the reason I was given was that it was a far more painful procedure if you hadn't ever given birth. They agreed to fit me after I stated that I was happy to take my chances on the pain issue.

Nicki

amus wrote: »

Im just interested in what the people who are appalled by the multiple abortion figures see as the alternative?

I personally dont understand why some women would go through mulitple abortions, but I also personally do not understand why some people become drug addicts, why some people choose to gamble their life savings away, why people choose to spend £7 on a packet of fags.

Does that mean we shouldnt offer help to drug addicts, should we withdraw all NHS treatment for smoking related illness?

IMO the sex education in this country is terrible and we need to be taking a much more mature approach to educating our children at a younger age, but the pro-life lobby would probably see that as horrifying aswell.

Well speaking as one of those who is appalled by the multiple abortion statistics and indeed just the abortion statistics in general, I have already said quite clearly that I don't know what the answer is, but I can see that there is a problem.

Your anology is fallacious because I have said that I am in theory pro-choice and that I don't advocate women being forced to remain pregnant and give birth against their wills. However, that does not mean that the current situation is working either, and that it isn't a situation which should be questioned regularly and changed if a palatable change can be found.

My personal preference would be for a way to be found to encourage all women to take responsibility for their fertility and use contraception responsibly. That does not mean that I don't accept or understand that contraception can and does fail even when used 100% properly, or that my view is that women who find themselves in this situation should be refused a termination. But it does mean that I do not believe that all women seeking terminations, or even the vast majority of them, have had a contraception failure (as opposed to misuse), or have medical grounds or have been the victims of a sexual attack.

I do not advocate either forced sterilisation or forced contraception. My post last night wasn't advocating forced contraception, it was making the point that free abortion wasn't "morally neutral" as one poster described it simply because it prevented the birth of unwanted children, on the basis that forced contraception with very limited abortion rights could also achieve that aim and clearly wasn't morally neutral.

Black and white arguments and entrenched positions are not IMO helpful in relation to subjects like this, as it means society never moves on and refines its moral position or humane position. There are very very few people in the world (and none I think on this thread) who believe that women should not be able to control their fertility in any shape or form. However, some (and I am one of these) believe that abortion should always be the solution of last resort, and I am afraid if we are talking morals, my personal opinion is that a woman who does not want to have a child does have a strong moral obligation to use the most reliable contraception she can find, consistently and in accordance with the instructions and medical advice, including seeking immediate help if she knows that her contraceptive cover has been compromised. If having done all that she still falls pregnant, then yes of course a termination should be open to her. However, I do feel women who don't use contraception properly, then ask for a termination are on far far shakier moral ground (to reiterate in bold for the purposes of those who wilfully misinterpret this position not those 2-3% women whose contraception was used completely properly but failed nonetheless).

janninew

Welshwoofs wrote: »

I was also told that they 'don't tend' to fit the IUD in women that haven't had children and the reason I was given was that it was a far more painful procedure if you hadn't ever given birth. They agreed to fit me after I stated that I was happy to take my chances on the pain issue.

I asked my Doctor about this option for me and he said he wouldn't be prepared to fit one. I've had a baby but I had a section and a very early baby and he said that it wouldn't be easy to place and might not be as effective.

My Mum who has had 4 children via the normal route has one fitted and said it was very painful to have fitted!

There is an interesting article in this months Cosmopolitan about abortion in America, it makes for quite scary reading, the death threats the staff in the clinic are receiving and the abuse the women receive on their way into the clinics is absolutely shocking.

Errata

However, I do feel women who don't use contraception properly, then ask for a termination are on far far shakier moral ground (to reiterate in bold for the purposes of those who wilfully misinterpret this position not those 2-3% women whose contraception was used completely properly but failed nonetheless).

Looks like we're heading for the madonna / w h o r e arguement.

peachyprice

janninew wrote: »

I asked my Doctor about this option for me and he said he wouldn't be prepared to fit one. I've had a baby but I had a section and a very early baby and he said that it wouldn't be easy to place and might not be as effective.

My Mum who has had 4 children via the normal route has one fitted and said it was very painful to have fitted!

If you still want one, go to your local family planning clinic. You don't need to be registered with them, just make an appointment.

I've had 2 c-sections so never given birth and had premmies, but I've had them fitted. Yes it's tricky and more uncomfortable to insert, but it can be done. They couldn't do mine at the GP surgery either, but TBH they didn't really try that hard.

There is an interesting article in this months Cosmopolitan about abortion in America, it makes for quite scary reading, the death threats the staff in the clinic are receiving and the abuse the women receive on their way into the clinics is absolutely shocking.

The same thing happens here. There's a clinic not far from me, they regularly have protesters outside making death threats to staff and patients going in, throwing paint over patients and staff, vandalising staff cars, following doctors home. When you go there they warn you to be on the look out for protesters and apologies, but there's not a lot they can do about it.

janninew

peachyprice wrote: »

If you still want one, go to your local family planning clinic. You don't need to be registered with them, just make an appointment.

I've had 2 c-sections so never given birth and had premmies, but I've had them fitted. Yes it's tricky and more uncomfortable to insert, but it can be done. They couldn't do mine at the GP surgery either, but TBH they didn't really try that hard.




The same thing happens here. There's a clinic not far from me, they regularly have protesters outside making death threats to staff and patients going in, throwing paint over patients and staff, vandalising staff cars, following doctors home. When you go there they warn you to be on the look out for protesters and apologies, but there's not a lot they can do about it.

Thanks for that information, I'm seeing my Doctor next week but I really want a permanent method of contraception as I don't want any more children. Plus after my Mum telling me that they hurt to be fitted its put me off - I'm a right wimp!!

Shocking about the clinic near you, everybody has the right to peacefully protest but the acts you describe are disgraceful, how these protesters think they have the right to do that to people who are doing their job or seeking a legal medical procedure is beyond me.