delicate subject - abortion

coolcait

Fire_Fox wrote: »

IMO what we need is better hormone-free methods of contraception,

agreed

better sex education in schools,

agreed

enforced contraception for the under 24s except those who can demonstrate a stable relationship.

No. Absolutely not.

How does an 'enforced' approach to any area of sexual and reproductive health fit into a viewpoint of 'pro-choice'?

Errata

marywooyeah wrote: »

Person One I have already stated if you don't choose to believe me that's up to you but have asked you to please stop belittling my experience.

I wish it wasn't true but it is. I am no medical expert about needles or cannulas, I can only describe what happened to me. I don't know how many more times I need to tell you explain that I recieved an apology from the hospital

My baby died and I have spent years grieving for him. It took four years before I even felt ready for counselling and I am still awaiting a referral for further help. Please stop because you have no idea what I have suffered and your continued nasty comments are ignorant and upsetting.

You're clearly very damaged. I hope you find the help you need.

coolcait

mary, what about your boyfriend?

You seem to be blaming everyone in the situation except the man who said that you 'had' to have an abortion. And who may have given you PID.

If you didn't tell anyone, at any point, that your boyfriend was pressurising/forcing you into having an abortion, then how could they have known what was going on?

I find your case very difficult. This isn't about you giving or retracting consent when you were unconscious. It's about the fact that you went to your GP, while conscious, and got a referral for an abortion. You then went to the clinic, while conscious, and signed forms agreeing to the abortion, while conscious.

You went along with all of the preparatory procedures, while conscious, and without informing anyone that you were beign pressured into an abortion. You only seem to have spoken up when you were already going under the anaesthetic - a time when people do often 'babble'.

Whilst I feel for your distress, I have to say that the situation you have decribed has less to do with abortion, and more to do with the nature of your relationship with your boyfriend at the time.

I can only hope that he did not become your husband. And that you can find some peace. IMO, you will find that peace more easily if you allow yourself to be fully honest with yourself about all of the factors which led to you having an abortion - rather than fixating on the role of the one person you have already seen punished.

BugglyB

coolcait wrote: »

How does an 'enforced' approach to any area of sexual and reproductive health fit into a viewpoint of 'pro-choice'?

Quite right, keep the government (particularly this one!) out of my uterus, thank you very much!

peachyprice

janninew wrote: »

Yes I do understand what you mean, but I was referring to women who have multiple abortions, surely after going through that experience once you will not want to experience it again and do your best at all costs to ensure it doesn't happen.

Not sure if women who have abortions are given an appointment after regarding contraception and finding a suitable method to reduce the risks greatly that they will have another unwanted pregnancy.

I fully agree with safe, legal abortion if you have an unwanted pregnancy, but wonder about the mentality of the women who have several (unless they are mega unlucky with contraception of course!) If I had an abortion due to a failed contraception incident, I would be straight to the Docs asking for advice and making my OH wear a condom!

I had an abortion at 17 when I was raped by my boyfriend, I had an abortion at 37 when contraception failed 4 months after a c-section.

That makes me a statistic, but does that make me stupid, does that make you question my mentality, does that mean I shouldn't have been allowed a second abortion?

Be very careful judging people who are in the unfortunate situation of being a statistic, figures do not tell the whole story.

Welshwoofs

marywooyeah wrote: »

No you're right that wouldn't happen - because you don't meet all those people, it's not a big meet and greet of everyone who will abort your baby. The only person I spoke to was one Dr , I thought she was a nurse and it was only last year after a lot of digging that I found out the same person I had made it clear to that I wanted my baby was the same person that carried out the abortion.

Did you not have a scan as well? My experience was 20 odd years ago but the process was roughly:

• Appointment with GP to talk about having a termination
• A scan at the hospital
• Another appointment at the hospital to have the actual termination which involved communicating with a nurse, meeting an anaesthetist and then being in a room with at least 2 people that I remember where anaesthetic was given

So talked to at least four different medical staff.

This was raised at the meeting and the chair said that it is "not uncommon" for people to raise objections as they are falling asleep and the procedures are always carried out regardless. I personally find it very concerning that someone can say they don't want something to be done but for it to go ahead anyway once they are unconcious.

They are right though - I'm terrified of needles and remember saying "I don't think I'm ready for this!" when I saw it hove into view before mine. I was simply calmed down and they got on with it. As another person said though, by the time you're at the point to have anaesthetic administered you've already had the drug that would make it impossible to undo the decision.

I'm afraid that I've got to say that though you got an apology - if it had really been a case of you giving no consent, I'd have thought the doctor would have been struck off as naturally doing surgery against someone's will is probably about the most serious thing a surgeon could do. It sounds to me as though you were given an apology out of goodwill because you were extremely upset after the event.

Errata

Getting an apology from the NHS because it performed an elective procedure against a patient's expressed wishes is more difficult than getting blood out of a stone. It usually takes years, a court case and a ferocious solicitor and barrister

Welshwoofs

Nicki wrote: »

But if the only issue is achieving a world without unwanted children, that could equally well be achieved by requiring all women when they reach puberty to the age of menopause to be fitted with a coil/implant/depo jab, which could only be removed if the woman signed a declaration saying she was actively trying for a baby.

That presumes that all women are suited to all forms of contraception and that isn't the case. My GP said she wouldn't be happy with me having either the implant or depo and suggested the coil. The coil was fitted with great difficulty on their part (and great pain on mine) and was expelled by my body a few weeks later. I went back to the GP to report what happened and she said she wouldn't want to try and fit one again as it was too difficult to do the first time around due to a 'tilted cervix'. So then my contraceptions were down to the pill or condoms.

balletshoes

marywooyeah wrote: »

No you're right that wouldn't happen - because you don't meet all those people, it's not a big meet and greet of everyone who will abort your baby. The only person I spoke to was one Dr , I thought she was a nurse and it was only last year after a lot of digging that I found out the same person I had made it clear to that I wanted my baby was the same person that carried out the abortion.

There was no admitting nurse, you don't speak to the theatre staff and the anaesthetist put the needle in my hand without saying anything to me. This was raised at the meeting and the chair said that it is "not uncommon" for people to raise objections as they are falling asleep and the procedures are always carried out regardless. I personally find it very concerning that someone can say they don't want something to be done but for it to go ahead anyway once they are unconcious.

Mary - did you have your procedure done on the NHS, in the county we both live in? Because your experience and mine, possibly within the same NHS area, were poles apart. On the morning of my operation at least 3 different staff came to speak to me in my cubicle, one of them was the surgeon (who I hadn't met at my consultation at the clinic) one of them was a ward member of staff, and one of them was the senior nurse on the surgical team. All of them talked to me about the procedure, and all of them gave me plenty of opportunity to ask questions or say I'd changed my mind (one woman did that morning, I heard her leave).

At the clinic beforehand for the consultation, I was taken for a scan (one member of staff) my paperwork was checked by another member of staff, I spoke to a nurse regarding my options, and then a doctor regarding a better choice of contraception (mine had failed) and had blood etc taken, and that was when I first signed a form for the operation.

And again, once in the operating theatre, its too late to stop the termination. It was very clearly explained to me, at the clinic and on the morning of my operation when I was given the tablet to soften the neck of my womb, that there was no going back once I'd taken that.

If you really only had the opportunity to speak to one person (and I'm really sorry, but I do find that hard to accept) about your choices and your wishes, then thats tragic.

Hopefully telling my experience will help to reassure someone who may be having to make this decision that the actual procedure, as is standard, is not so traumatic as yours was.

euronorris

littlerat wrote: »

The most effective being the IUS - which many doctors or PCTs still won't use in women who haven't given birth.

On another note, I find myself wondering if somebody who has had hormonal contraception fail once is more likely to have it happen again - ie, their hormones are not fully suited/as susceptible to the effects as they should be.

Really? That's interesting. I had a copper IUD fitted here in NL, and it wasn't an issue (I've never given birth). I assumed it would be the same in the UK, but I guess not.

The pill failed me when I was 17 (I miscarried), but it didn't fail me ever again (29 now, and switched to the IUD in March 2011). It's possible that I had an upset stomach or something similar, around that time, which effectively flushed my system of the contraceptive. I don't know. I don't recall that happening, but it's possible it did and at 17 I didn't really think about the effect that could have on the effectiveness of the contraception.

Incidentally, neither do some pharmacists. I remember, around age 21/22, that a condom split on me and my bf at the time. We had been using that because I'd had an upset stomach the week before and couldn't be sure that the effectiveness of the pill wouldn't be compromised. So when the condom failed us too, I went to get the morning after pill, explained my reasons and then had the pharmacist tell me I didn't need it. That I would 'most likely' be OK. I did push for it, and got it, but I was definitely seen as some kind of inconvenience to him. Or maybe he wanted me to keep any child that may have resulted. I don't know. But it doesn't bode well when the professionals are doing stuff like that.