delicate subject - abortion

raven83

poet123 wrote: »

It is not a blob of cells though. I am pro choice, but I don't like to see people blythely making statements which are designed to belittle what the act of abortion actually is. That is a fully formed baby at 12 weeks you can see it on the scan pictures, alive and moving. It may not be viable outside the womb, but it is still a life.

Abortions are a fact of life and a necessity for many women, but that does not mean we should lose sight of what they entail or what they result in. Those who persist in playing that down do so for their own reasons.

I agree totally with this, and whilst I am pro choice, I have not lost sight of what abortion is, it is ending life. Whether it is at 6 weeks gestation, or 16, it is still ending a life that has been created. We was all that "blob" at some point, every single one of us, so for those that keep going on about it, maybe you should bear it in mind, you was a blob, bunch of cells etc and here you are today.

poet123

I suspect that Mary had already signed the consent forms and simply changed her mind at the last moment.

This happened to a friend of mine with a Hysterectomy, she had signed the consent forms, but when she had had her pre med and was on the trolley going to theatre, she changed her mind. They took her back to the ward, but I could see the risk that some hospitals may think it was just fear and go ahead anyway.

Brighton_belle

Marywooyeah, I think youhave had an horrendous experience:(.
I hope you get the help you deserve and need to somehow come to terms with what what happened to you and beable to move forward and find peace again.
I don't think you should blame yourself personally. You were young and vulnerable and under extreme pressure;the professionals shoud have picked up your unhappiness and doubts.
It is easy to say you should have walked away, if you have always been a coonfident articulate woman able to speak up for yourself. I can now, but when young, I was completely intimidated and humialited by a bullying male gynae (who funnily enough was later struck off after whipping out a womans ovaries without her permission). It was only him being distracted by a phone call that enabled me to run out of his office, heart pounding before having a proceedure 'forced' on me against my will.
I should add this was not abortion related, but I understand how a young woman can feel indimidated, voiceless, worthless and powerless and unheard.

Fire_Fox

Welshwoofs wrote: »

Ever tried to seek a sterialisation? I have. I don't know if this is a nationwide thing, but in the region I live they wouldn't do it if you had no children and no medical issues that would make carrying a child difficult.

The NHS don't like to sterialise childfree women of a fertile age...presumably in case they change their minds.

Ditto: I first asked at 18 and insisted it was put on my medical notes. I last asked in my thirties when I already had a history of mental health problems and was still not referred.

poet123 wrote: »

Abortions are a fact of life and a necessity for many women, but that does not mean we should lose sight of what they entail or what they result in. Those who persist in playing that down do so for their own reasons.

What 'own reasons' do I have? The fact that I have been working in healthcare for over two decades? The fact that I am Child Free by Choice? I've never needed an abortion and highly unlikely to the future, I am pro choice primarily to reduce the teenage pregnancy rate tho I'd FAR prefer better contraception. It's no more or less of an agenda than the people who are anti-abortion who are loving mothers and/ or had miscarriages.

poet123 wrote: »

If someone felt that strongly they could go privately. In any event if you were to suggest that bearing a child would be injurious to their mental health I suspect the NHS would do it.

I asked about private sterilisation in my teens and in my twenties, it was indicated to me that it would not be done. Admittedly I didn't push it but I was young, these were the days before I knew there were other Child Free by Choice women. Maybe they will for severe mental health cases - say schizoprenia or bipolar 1 - but even then you'd have issues with informed consent if the condition is poorly controlled.

poet123

Fire_Fox wrote: »

Ditto: I first asked at 18 and insisted it was put on my medical notes. I last asked in my thirties when I already had a history of mental health problems and was still not referred.

I can see why 18 would be considered too young to make such a far reaching decision.

Later, maybe they considered that your request could be coloured by the MH issues you were having?

Fire_Fox wrote: »

What 'own reasons' do I have? The fact that I have twenty years of working in healthcare? The fact that I am pro-choice? I've never needed an abortion and highly unlikely to the future. It's no more of an agenda than the people who are anti-abortion who are loving mothers and/ or had miscarriages.

I don't know how you would describe the state of a foetus at 12 weeks gestation so I can't comment, and obviously my other comments weren't aimed at you. However, whatever your background you cannot argue with the facts that at 12 weeks, on a scan their is life.

Fire_Fox wrote: »

I asked twice about private sterilisation, it was indicated to me that it would not be done. Admittedly I didn't push it but I was young, these were the days before I knew there were other Child Free by Choice women. Maybe they will for severe mental health cases - say schizoprenia or bipolar 1 - but even then you'd have issues with informed consent if the condition is poorly controlled.

If you are willing to pay, and can give informed consent, they will perform the OP.

balletshoes

marywooyeah wrote: »

You were not there, you do not know what happened.

I DID say I didn't want an abortion repeatedly, I expressly said more than once that I wanted to keep my baby, that I had named my baby and needed help keeping the baby.
I had the anathestic needle put into my hand with no one asking me let alone told me that they would do it - I tried to sit up and felt sleepy so realised and shouted "no I don't want to" but they did it anyway.

The abortionist - that word is not used to "make" it sound like anything, someone who performs an abortion is an abortionist, it's just the word that is used.

I recieved a formal apology because it was investigated and my notes recorded that I expressly and repeatedly stated I wanted to keep my baby. The same person that sat and recorded those notes was the same person that aborted my baby, therefore it was the decision of the meeting that they had acted without informed consent and against a patient's wishes. The abortionist was crying at the meeting but I don't think she was crying for my baby, I think she was crying at the prospect of being disciplined.

The hospital advised they would review their procedures and the advise they give to pregnant women who want to keep their babies, although obviously I have no way of knowing whether they actually will or not.

If you had read my earlier posts, I have already said twice that I do accept my part and my failings, therefore it is inappropriate of you to say that I am "laying all the blame on others". Quite simply a lot of the blame does fall on this practitioner and this was accepted by the hospital and the practioner herself, and I accept my share of the blame too.

Mary I know this has been gone over in previous threads, but at the point in the termination procedure where you were given the anaesthetic, it was already too late to stop the procedure, as you'd already been given the tablets to soften the neck of the womb.

It also never occurs to me that a surgeon who conducts abortions is called an abortionist - they are a surgeon. In which circles are they called abortionists?

Quite frankly, it seems to me that if any medical professional is to blame for this, its your GP. If you were vehement with him/her that you wanted to keep your baby when you discovered you were pregnant, why were you referred to a termination clinic in the first place?

Welshwoofs

poet123 wrote: »

It is not a blob of cells though. I am pro choice, but I don't like to see people blythely making statements which are designed to belittle what the act of abortion actually is.

I don't know how many more ways there are to say this to make you (and others) understand...but that is what it was to me! For many women abortion is not a life-changing, traumatic experience and though it obviously is for others, why on earth should those who experienced no problems and no regrets have to hide their thoughts and feelings away?

Those who persist in playing that down do so for their own reasons.

My reason for using those terms is because that is how I viewed it. Why on earth would I use such terms as 'baby' or 'child' when it was never that to me? (And in fact is not a 'baby' or a 'child' at that stage in legal or biological terminology either!)

I'd also add that those who persist in using emotive phrases are also doing it for their own reasons - why not question their motives?

Now I'm going to state quite bluntly here that neither you nor anyone else is going to browbeat me into viewing an embryo at the stage that most abortions are done as anything other than a blob of matter and if my views about that offend people....tough, they'll just have to put up with it...in exactly the same way as I put up with ludicrous overly-dramatic rhetoric about killing babies.

Welshwoofs

raven83 wrote: »

I agree totally with this, and whilst I am pro choice, I have not lost sight of what abortion is, it is ending life.

Yes, it is ending 'life' but it is not ending 'a life' however.

I had absolutely no qualms about ending 'life' because, to me, that 'life' really wasn't much different to the small embryo you sometimes get in a hen's egg when you crack it open. If left under the hen and nurtured it probably would have grown and eventually hatched into a chicken...but potentional is NOTthe same thing as something's current state. I never feel upset that I'm about to make an omelette out of something that may have become a chicken and I didn't get upset about terminating something that may eventually have become a baby.

poet123

Welshwoofs wrote: »

I don't know how many more ways there are to say this to make you (and others) understand...but that is what it was to me! For many women abortion is not a life-changing, traumatic experience and though it obviously is for others, why on earth should those who experienced no problems and no regrets have to hide their thoughts and feelings away?



My reason for using those terms is because that is how I viewed it. Why on earth would I use such terms as 'baby' or 'child' when it was never that to me? (And in fact is not a 'baby' or a 'child' at that stage in legal or biological terminology either!)

I'd also add that those who persist in using emotive phrases are also doing it for their own reasons - why not question their motives?

Now I'm going to state quite bluntly here that neither you nor anyone else is going to browbeat me into viewing an embryo at the stage that most abortions are done as anything other than a blob of matter and if my views about that offend people....tough, they'll just have to put up with it...in exactly the same way as I put up with ludicrous overly-dramatic rhetoric about killing babies.

You can of course think of it in any way you choose. It does not alter the fact that at 12 weeks the foetus is fully formed and alive, so a life.

No one is attempting to browbeat you, I think everyone has said you are entitled to view your personal situation in whatever way you wish. That view does not make it so universally, it does even make it anything other than a view, a way of looking at an issue which suits you.

I have no agenda here; I have never had an abortion, I am pro choice, could envisage reasons why I might even make that choice myself, but I would hope I would not try to rationalise away the actuality of it if I did take that course of action. I may well do just that though, as part of the human condition is often that we see things in the way that causes us least angst despite the way others view it, despite the way it actually is.

POPPYOSCAR

It is inevitable that any thread on this subject will end up the same way.