Tutition Fees Argument(Ex-Student Loans)

kr15snw

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

This is a forum, not a chat room. As many people come here for information and advice, it's probably a good idea if some people here aren't currently students and actually know what they're talking about.

Students come in all ages, attitudes and backgrounds so there's not much point talking about "our attitudes" when you only mean the attitudes of yourself and your friends. You may live in a student ghetto (perhaps you don't) but there's no reason why this forum should be one.

If you were ever to look at other boards, take the Benefits board as an example, you would find that not everyone who posts there is on benefits; several people work for the DHSS or Jobcentre Plus and they are able to give expert advice. If you just want to chat to other students, I suggest you go down the Union bar.

Good night.

I dont come on here to talk to other students, I come on here to recieve advice about student related matters. I do not come on here though to recieve harrassment from people who 'dont like students' which is obvious from your attitude. My query was why come on a student board to only have a go at students? You dont seem to be offering any advice, or trying to help. You just seem to be having a go.

Ahh bet my parents would love to hear that you're calling their house a student ghetto. Some of us cant afford halls, so we stayed at home

Good night to you!

Oldernotwiser

kr15snw wrote: »

I dont come on here to talk to other students, I come on here to recieve advice about student related matters. I do not come on here though to recieve harrassment from people who 'dont like students' which is obvious from your attitude. My query was why come on a student board to only have a go at students? You dont seem to be offering any advice, or trying to help. You just seem to be having a go.

Ahh bet my parents would love to hear that you're calling their house a student ghetto. Some of us cant afford halls, so we stayed at home

Good night to you!

I think that if you look at my previous posts you'll see that I've spent quite a lot of time giving people advice on student matters. It's what I do (mainly) for a living. I certainly don't dislike students but I think that the attitudes displayed often leave a great deal to be desired and I see no reason not to point that out.

If you understood the true meaning of the word "ghetto" you wouldn't have been insulted. Halls of Residence are student ghettos.

si1503

lucien_roach wrote: »

screw tutition fees should never have been introduced, the system was much fairer before hand

How is Taxpayers paying their hard earned cash to send youngsters to University and give them degrees at all fair?

In a free economy, a fair system would be where students pay the full amount for going to University themselves. The real cost of going to University on average is considerably more than 3k per year, when you factor in all the costs invloved, even with the fees UK Universities are still underfunded.

The current system offers higher education at a heavily subsidised price, and there is plenty of support available from the Government in the way of loans and grants to offer HE to students from all backgrounds, regardless of their family's income. Taxpayers money is still going to Universities, but arguably this could be justified as an educated workforce is imperative to sustain productivity levels in the economy, which benefits us all.

I personally feel the balance is rather good right now. To charge students nothing is just wrong, to charge them ridiculous amounts (say £20-30k) like over in the US is a bit far. But personally I only see HE fees going up in the future. As far as I'm aware Universities will soon be able to decide how much they charge for their degrees, this will see the top Universities such as Oxford and Cambridge charging more than the newer poly's, this could arguably put youngsters from poorer backgrounds off the idea of going to the best Unis, the solution to this I feel would be to increase the loans to those students from poorer familys that wish to attend Universities with expensive fees, the justification being that the better degree will result in higher earnings, hence the ability to repay a larger loan, but A) whether or not this happens and if so, where the line is drawn is questionable.

I do agree with a point that someone else touched on, that HE fees can act as a barrier to some potential students that would otherwise go to University and waste their time by not putting any effort in. I see the fact that they may discourage half-arsed students a good thing. As I've said before unless you are very motivated and hungry to excel in your subject and outshine those around you going to University is a waste of time.

And as far as the argument goes about it putting off students from poor backgrounds, thats what grants, hardship funds, and PT jobs are for! Yes Uni is expensive, and yes.. you will end up in debt! That goes for students from all backgrounds! Grants, hardships and money earned from work is not repayable! I will end up with about £15k student loan debt, same as the majority of other students, but at the end of the day that is a small price to pay for the increased earnings I'll incur over my lifetime thanks to my degree. It is really an investment, and as long as the returns are better than the returns for alternative strategies (which they are), and outweigh the costs (which in the vast majority of cases they do) then I still see it as being a well advised one.

melancholly

just wanted to stick my oar in about non-students giving advice. i've graduated, done a masters and am now doing a phd - i may not be an undergrad, but having been at 3 universities and been through it, i'd hope that i have some experience that might be useful, especially on university procedures. i think assuming that the only people who can give advice are people in the same position is a bit blinkered.

whatever should or shouldn't happen with fees isn't really going to help the OP - i'd say get a job and get saving, then make sure you get a student account with a large interest free overdraft and get a part time job during term if you can, and try for full-time temping in the holidays.

impy78

tr3mor wrote: »

Can't you spot a joke when you see one?

I still don't see why a debt that you pay off after graduating and not until you're earning £15k should be relevant to your parents' income.

Is it also unfair that kids from more well off backgrounds might get bought cars for their 17th birthday, or go on 3 holidays a year? Should we subsidise cars for poor people?

Is it unfair that we don't all have the exact same parents and exact same upbringing? Maybe we should never see our parents and all go to a state run boarding school, just in case our parents might want to do the best they can for us?

I hope in the future that the fees reflect the cost of providing the course, it might make students think twice about throwing away three years on something completely useless.

I apologise that I missed the irony in your post. I now see the possibility for irony, but in a forum, deadpan humour doesn't really work very well, at all, as it is difficult to distinguish from sincerity.

But I think you rather missed my point...that being poor isn't the terrible and awful thing you make it out to be, and bank balance is not reflective of intelligence quotient.

The very last thing I would ever change about my parents is their income - I for one, have never really been bothered with keeping up with the Joneses. If someone gets a car for their 17th birthday - good for them. I would be genuinely happy for them. I accept my parents couldn't do that, they did the best they could for me financially.

I don't really see where you got the idea that I think poor people should get handouts for holidays and cars, and I fail to see how these luxuries can really be compared to a decent education. The scrapping of the grants system, was an abomination, (thankfully, I graduated long before this happened!), as this provided an opportunity for the very poor to further their education and better themselves, and to use what they had learned to make a contribution to our country. And had the chairman of the NUS not been bribed by the Labour Party, with offers of a job, it would not have happened.

I don't really understand what degrees are a waste of time, and which are worthwhile? Who decides this? You?
I have done a degree, and a postgraduate course, which some people may not find helpful, worthwhile, etc etc...but to me, both courses have been invaluable. (And yes, they have both been in the same subject/area/vocation.)


I don't know how you have made these assumptions from my post, that my greatest ambition is to be some awful Home Counties type with a Jaguar, four bathrooms and children called Jemima and Tarquin, but they couldn't be further from the truth.

My point was, that you seem to have this anachronistic view that all poor people are stupid, unemployed, and living in constant envy of everyone around them. I hate to break the news to you, but some of us are quite happy to be who and where we are.

That's all.

Torby

Just wait til you try and find reasonable accomodation in Jesmond, then add on the cost of all your services, gas, electric then your food...then your Metro pass....no other way to get around Newcastle....and there are jobs there....my daughter ended up getting offered 3....so just roll up your sleeves and get stuck in

lucien_roach

impy78 wrote: »

I fail to see how these luxuries can really be compared to a decent education. The scrapping of the grants system, was an abomination, (thankfully, I graduated long before this happened!), as this provided an opportunity for the very poor to further their education and better themselves, and to use what they had learned to make a contribution to our country. And had the chairman of the NUS not been bribed by the Labour Party, with offers of a job, it would not have happened.

totally agree with this. That was the point i was trying to make but failed to.

since i was about 8 when labour got into power the whole "NUS guy getting bribed thing" is kinda shocking. Its kind of ironic that it was party established to protect the rights of the poor introduced it.

impy78 wrote: »

I don't really understand what degrees are a waste of time, and which are worthwhile? Who decides this? You?

cough *media studies* cough. :P yeah i sorta agree i guess if your passionate about a subject why not

Torby wrote:

Just wait til you try and find reasonable accomodation in Jesmond, then add on the cost of all your services, gas, electric then your food...then your Metro pass....no other way to get around Newcastle....and there are jobs there....my daughter ended up getting offered 3....so just roll up your sleeves and get stuck in

After i posted this thread i sat down and worked out my finances should be covered by bar work (trying to avoid the overdraft route) and i have found a few EU laws that meant most of my fields trips will be free (Europe is in need of archaeologists) will is pretty cool. I had a look round Newcastle during Tuesday/Wednesday. It is a awesome city and has a brilliant university and I confirmed my choice today. I will be using Newcastle Accomm. first year so Gas/Water/Elec. are no big issue this year i figured i will need around a £1000 to cover the rest of my expenses. may be overly underbudgeting.

I found it easy enough to walk round Newcastle since i had a look at some of the accomdation so travel is no bigger and i can get home in around 4 hours for about £60 return on the train (with YPRC).

Can someone explain Gateshead to me? is a different city or part of newcastle was confusing me.

yeah my finance panic wasn't really too bigger thing i figure now (but tutition fees are still evil)

tr3mor

impy78 wrote: »

I apologise that I missed the irony in your post. I now see the possibility for irony, but in a forum, deadpan humour doesn't really work very well, at all, as it is difficult to distinguish from sincerity.

Surely that is the whole point of deadpan humour? It's not very funny if the comedian can't keep a straight face. Just like it wouldn't have been funny if I'd pointed out I was joking before making that post.

impy78 wrote: »

But I think you rather missed my point...that being poor isn't the terrible and awful thing you make it out to be, and bank balance is not reflective of intelligence quotient.

I never claimed that being poor was so terrible. Surely it is other posters claiming that being poor is so terrible that they need assistance and subsidies.

impy78 wrote: »

The very last thing I would ever change about my parents is their income - I for one, have never really been bothered with keeping up with the Joneses. If someone gets a car for their 17th birthday - good for them. I would be genuinely happy for them. I accept my parents couldn't do that, they did the best they could for me financially.

I don't really see where you got the idea that I think poor people should get handouts for holidays and cars, and I fail to see how these luxuries can really be compared to a decent education. The scrapping of the grants system, was an abomination, (thankfully, I graduated long before this happened!), as this provided an opportunity for the very poor to further their education and better themselves, and to use what they had learned to make a contribution to our country. And had the chairman of the NUS not been bribed by the Labour Party, with offers of a job, it would not have happened.

If you're genuinely happy for someone to get a car from Mummy and Daddy why would you not be genuinely happy that they got their tuition fees paid for them?

You seem to be of the opinion that if someone can't afford something then someone else should pay.

impy78 wrote: »

I don't really understand what degrees are a waste of time, and which are worthwhile? Who decides this? You?
I have done a degree, and a postgraduate course, which some people may not find helpful, worthwhile, etc etc...but to me, both courses have been invaluable. (And yes, they have both been in the same subject/area/vocation.)

I'm not going to decide anything. I can look around me at uni. I can see which of my classmates are attending lectures, putting in the effort and coming out with good grades. I can also see which are sitting around at home drinking and smoking dope and will come out after 3 years with a third if they're lucky.

I wasn't implying anything about the relative value of different subjects. But as an aside it is much cheaper to provide an arts degree than it is to provide a science degree. Hence arts degrees would probably be cheaper if the prices reflected the cost of providing the course.

impy78 wrote: »

I don't know how you have made these assumptions from my post, that my greatest ambition is to be some awful Home Counties type with a Jaguar, four bathrooms and children called Jemima and Tarquin, but they couldn't be further from the truth.

What the f? Where did you get the impression that I assumed that?

impy78 wrote: »

My point was, that you seem to have this anachronistic view that all poor people are stupid, unemployed, and living in constant envy of everyone around them. I hate to break the news to you, but some of us are quite happy to be who and where we are.

Very well done to you! You're simply contradicting yourself though. If you were quite happy to be where you were then you wouldn't be accepting handouts for a "free" education.

I guess the whole point of my posts were...

1. University is cheap - it costs much more to provide the course than you pay in fees, and you get ample assistance from student loans. If you need more money then get a job (or rob a bank), don't come on here whinging that you're put off because you're averse to debt.

2. You get out of uni what you put in - if you think three years of your life !!!!ed down the toilet is a good use of your time then good for you! All of us decent students will be laughing when you're stuck in a call centre.

To put this in context I am not rich or spoilt. My Mother is a widowed teacher who has supported me and my 16 year old sister the best she could. My late father left school after O-levels to become a lab-technician, he worked hard in the same company for 30 years working his way up the ladder. My grandfathers were a steel worker and an HGV driver respectively. It's hardly a bloody silver spoon.

tr3mor

Torby wrote: »

Just wait til you try and find reasonable accomodation in Jesmond, then add on the cost of all your services, gas, electric then your food...then your Metro pass....no other way to get around Newcastle....and there are jobs there....my daughter ended up getting offered 3....so just roll up your sleeves and get stuck in

Well, if you would look for reasonable accommodation in a green and leafy expensive area then you're deluded. Go live in Byker or Heaton, plenty of cheap houses there!

And there are plenty of other ways to get around Newcastle - buses, bicycle, shank's pony.

tr3mor

lucien_roach wrote: »

Can someone explain Gateshead to me? is a different city or part of newcastle was confusing me.

Gateshead is a different city, south of the River Tyne. It's pretty much a craphole but has the Metro Centre and the car park from Get Carter, that's about it.