Driver in overtaking lane at 65mph

SHIPSHAPE

Bongles wrote: »

[efa]


That's the attitude bit dealt with. How does it work in practice? Simple really:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5. If they move over, thank them for their cooperation as you drive past.

I'd be surprised if you got a substanitally different view on the matter from anyone involved in the IAM/RoSPA advanced driving world. I don't think I've come across one.

.

And if they don't move over?

That's right, you wait (or, rather, drive at an appropriate speed which maybe slower than the 65mph of the car in front)

It was a busy motorway where, by all accounts, only one opportunity presented itself to change lanes, in the OP's opinion.

One tends to drive slower on a busy motorway if 70mph cannot be achieved due to congestion.

You do not go around flashing your headlights in this situation.

This is the basis of the thread.

Mrs_Arcanum

In the original scenario it is somewhat ambiguous.

Why if there were plenty of opportunities for the person in lane 3 to move into the middle lane, were there not the same opportunities for the OP to go into the middle lane and ignore the idiot in the outside lane altogether? Perhaps even at some point the middle lane traffic moving at a faster speed than the O/S lane.

All in all it would imply the traffic was flowing at a steady pace which is really what is needed, rather than the panic breaking which snarls up the traffic even more.

SHIPSHAPE

almillar wrote: »

Thanks for that Bongles, very well put. Have a good read SHIPSHAPE, and next time you're speaking with someone from the IAM, ask them about this!

I'd take the word of a traffic cop & the judiciary more as they are the ones who matter!

Now, you have failed to answer from a previous post, AGAIN-

1 What do you think vehicles on the opposite carriageway think your flash meant when you do it to someone in front of you?

2 What do you think cops think when you are doing the above, but this time in a speed trap area?

3 If what you are doing is so valid then you, or any other driver, can just cite it as a defence if accused of flashing to warn.

But it doesn't happen does it?

SHIPSHAPE

Mrs_Arcanum wrote: »

In the original scenario it is somewhat ambiguous.

Why if there were plenty of opportunities for the person in lane 3 to move into the middle lane, were there not the same opportunities for the OP to go into the middle lane and ignore the idiot in the outside lane altogether? Perhaps even at some point the middle lane traffic moving at a faster speed than the O/S lane.

All in all it would imply the traffic was flowing at a steady pace which is really what is needed, rather than the panic breaking which snarls up the traffic even more.

Hi everyone

Heading into work this morning when I was caught behind a car doing between 63-65 mph in the overtaking lane.

Now for once I was actually real early for work so was in no real panic, so just sat behind her. However, 2 other cars zoomed up in the inside and undertook both of us.

Ended up I sat behind her for the rest of my journey - there was only one further opportunity where I could have undertook her, but there was a car ahead which looked suspiciously like a cop car so chickened out. Imo there were plenty of chances for her to pull in.

It's quite clear it was busy, yes the flow may have been steady, but busy.

The OP is driving his car, not the car in front.

Only his opinions, or judgment, on what they can/should do.

Drivers have accidents due to poor judgments all the time.

We cannot say the OP, or the driver at 65mph, has good, excellent, poor or average judgment.

Only that he wasn't driving the car in front and, maybe, in the car doing 65mph judgment it wasn't safe to change lanes on a busy motorway.

Whatever, it is simply not for the OP to flash the driver in front, essentially imposing his authority when he has none.

Again, you should not flash a vehicle in these circumstances.

Bongles

SHIPSHAPE wrote: »

Well, you make a thoughtful considered response, however, I don't agree with you.

Fair enough . Is that solely because you're visualising traffic too busy for this to be appropriate? Out of interest, imagine a different scenario: You're on a two lane motorway. You and the car in front of you are in lane 2 passing a couple of lorries. There's nobody else ahead or behind. The car in front is doing 65 and you would like to do 70. After passing the lorries, the car in front does not return to lane 1. In that situation, would you disagree with anything I wrote?

Reading this thread, it didn't seem to me that the discussion of whether flashing your headlamps is unacceptable or not was restricted to the context of busy motorways. The context seemed to me to have moved on to motorway driving in general. What I posted is applicable in principle to any level of traffic, but of course the busier the traffic, the less likely you are to find yourself held up by someone who has an opportunity to move left and let you past.

SHIPSHAPE wrote: »

I'm sure you have read the OP's initial posting although you may not have read it carefully, which is essentially what this ping pong of a debate is about.

The OP was on a busy motorway, it was a working day morning, it was rush hour & he had only one option throughout his journey to

undertake (if he wished to, though not advised).

Although the OP also said there were plenty of opportunities for the other driver to move over.

SHIPSHAPE wrote: »

However, your statement, highlighted in red is all telling, '...held up...'

One is often held up by a car in front on a busy motorway!

You would only be flashing your headlights to try not to be held up, to get on your way.

Of course. It is reasonable to expect to be held up by slower vehicles while they are in the process of overtaking. And it is reasonable to expect them to move over so you can get on your way when they have finished overtaking. Sometimes they don't. That's what this thread is about.

SHIPSHAPE wrote: »

You do not need to flash your headlights to make your presence known, who on earth needs prompting that a car is behind you on a
busy motorway?

I've been driven by people who don't seem to be paying much attention to what's going on behind them. I've seen drivers in overtaking lanes holding up queues when there's no reason for them not to move over. I've seen emergency vehicles with blue lights and wig-wags stuck behind drivers who haven't seen them coming or realised they're there. I've seen body language from drivers I have flashed that looks uncannily like someone waking up out of autopilot. I've seen vehicles on the motorway with their electric wing mirrors still folded in. Evidence to suggest that people don't always pay as much attention as they could to what's going on behind them on motorways is adundant.

SHIPSHAPE wrote: »

And if they don't move over?

I answered that in my previous post - I'd consider a second flash. Obviously after first reassessing points 2, 3 and 4. As I said, I probably wouldn't go beyond two flashes, but then I can't remember that I've ever needed to.

SHIPSHAPE

Bongles wrote: »

Fair enough . Is that solely because you're visualising traffic too busy for this to be appropriate? Out of interest, imagine a different scenario: You're on a two lane motorway. You and the car in front of you are in lane 2 passing a couple of lorries. There's nobody else ahead or behind. The car in front is doing 65 and you would like to do 70. After passing the lorries, the car in front does not return to lane 1. In that situation, would you disagree with anything I wrote?

I myself would not do as you suggested you would ie prompt the driver in front by the flashing of lights, so I would have to disagree.

The car in front of me will not always be in front of me, for various reasons. Amongst them are, they will eventually change a lane or I will change a lane, the two lanes may eventually become three, I will eventually exit that stretch of road or the car in front will eventually exit...and so on.

I am rarely, if ever, so short of time whilst driving that I have to drive at 70mph when some vehicle in front of me is driving at 65mph. It isn't an issue for me and I dare say that this situation of being held up would only ever be temporary for the reasons I have stated above.

On a long journey, for example, this unexpected and, maybe, annoying hold up, is hardly worth merit as to what time is actually lost.

The flashing of lights will, or could potentially, cause more of a danger to what you ultimately achieve.

Again, what you intend for the flashing of lights to mean does not then mean all other vehicles understand your intention, from the opposite carraigeway for example.

As you stated in your first post, patience is your friend.

It is the ambiguity that flashing of lights presents that I have never heard of it being utilised as an effective tool, and certainly not on a motorway, less so a busy one.

Although the OP also said there were plenty of opportunities for the other driver to move over.

And the above poses two very important points, both related.

1 The OP, in their opinion, said there were plenty of opportunities to move over.

Drivers have differing capabilities and make different judgments.

After all, somebody today will have had an accident based purely on a wrong call, a misjudgment.

I've seen plenty of near misses, bumps, scrapes and bad accidents with vehicles in my vision attempting to change lanes inappropriately.

We don't know whether the OP is correct that there was several, safe lane changing opportunities, he just tells us there was.

Maybe the car driver in front says there was not?

We do not know if one driver is more skilled than the other, whether one has had accidents in the past and the other has had few, if any.

It appears to me the OP is not only deciding how he drives but how the car in front drives too, or should.

Do I need, for example, a 17 yr old fresher to driving, who has never before been on a motorway, flash me to get a move on where, in my judgment of 25 yrs driving, 65mph is appropriate for the conditions and, in my judgment, I feel I am unable to change lanes?

I say this because what if the OP is that 17 yr old and the lead car driver has 25 yrs of accident free motoring?

Would you still advise that 17 yr old to flash that lead vehicle if it was an ambulance (not on call)?

2 Unless one is driving dangerously close to the vehicle in front of you, you cannot be 100% certain who that driver is.

What if the lead car's driver was elderly?

Although perfectly legal to drive their reactions are not what they were at age 21. Their capabilities diminish, naturally.

Now, if another driver is behind them flashing their lights I can guarantee that that driver will consider it nothing less than an aggressive, intimidating act, despite what your intention may be.


I answered that in my previous post - I'd consider a second flash. Obviously after first reassessing points 2, 3 and 4. As I said, I probably wouldn't go beyond two flashes, but then I can't remember that I've ever needed to.

What would you do after a second flash and the car still didn't move?

As stated previously, I have only ever known flashing of lights to make one's presence aware advised at situations like a broken down car on a keen bend where the driver maybe encroaching on the road to investigate, for example.

Even then it was considered a horn beep more effective as they could be moving in and out of sight with a raised bonnet and wouldn't see a flash, for eg.

I'm sorry, but I have never heard of the flashing of lights to be utilised in the way advocated by yourself and several other members simply due to the potential danger it can cause.

Sgt_Pepper_2

SHIPSHAPE wrote: »

As stated previously, I have only ever known flashing of lights to make one's presence aware advised at situations like a broken down car on a keen bend where the driver maybe encroaching on the road to investigate, for example.

Even then it was considered a horn beep more effective as they could be moving in and out of sight with a raised bonnet and wouldn't see a flash, for eg.

I'm sorry, but I have never heard of the flashing of lights to be utilised in the way advocated by yourself and several other members simply due to the potential danger it can cause.

I have, the flashing of headlights has the same meaning as using the horn.

SHIPSHAPE

Bongles wrote: »

Of course. It is reasonable to expect to be held up by slower vehicles while they are in the process of overtaking. And it is reasonable to expect them to move over so you can get on your way when they have finished overtaking. Sometimes they don't. That's what this thread is about.

.

It appears here you want the benefit of two differing reasons for flashing headlights!

You say you want your presence known, ok, let's go with that.

That is what you say the HC permits you to do.

So you have made your presence known...but...you now also want them to move and change lanes!

Now, which is it? It can't be both, as one is permitted as you say ie you've made your presence known.

But, you go further, not only have you made your presence known but they should also move!

That is essentially directing traffic as to what they should be doing without any authority whatsoever to do so.

Again, what authorises you, as a private motorist, to expect vehicles to move out of your way because you flash them?

Simply post the relevant Road Traffic Act/HC section that permits this.

Mrs_Arcanum

Taken from the Signalling section of the highway code.

110
Flashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.
111
Never assume that flashing headlights is a signal inviting you to proceed. Use your own judgement and proceed carefully.
112
The horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively. You MUST NOT use your horn
while stationary on the road
when driving in a built-up area between the hours of 11.30 pm and 7.00 am
except when another road user poses a danger.

Therefore if another driver appears to be oblivious to your presence you "either" sound your horn or flash your headlights (as per bit in bold) as the highway code advises to warn other road users you are there. However, where the rule is clear is lights and horns are not to be used to intimidate. The Motorway section of the highway code does not mention any different rules for this.

SHIPSHAPE

Mrs_Arcanum wrote: »

Taken from the Signalling section of the highway code.

Therefore if another driver appears to be oblivious to your presence you "either" sound your horn or flash your headlights (as per bit in bold) as the highway code advises to warn other road users you are there. However, where the rule is clear is lights and horns are not to be used to intimidate. The Motorway section of the highway code does not mention any different rules for this.

110
Flashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users

What that section also states, in bold above, is to not flash your headlights to convey any other message!

As member Bongles, and others, seem to want is just that, ie they want to convey their presence AND expects the car in front to move & change lanes.

Private motorists do not have the authority to direct traffic.

Now, you cannot go quoting the HC to justify flashing of lights to encourage cars in front to move out of your way when it is clearly forbidden to do so, it is conveying another message.

All you are, supposedly doing, is making your presence felt.

In any case, as I have earlier stated, 'making your presence felt' by flashing your headlights on a busy motorway is not appropriate.

It is not unusual to have vehicles to the left, right, behind & in front on a busy motorway!

Further, what do you think drivers on the opposite carriageway think your flashing means?