Driver in overtaking lane at 65mph

SHIPSHAPE

PollyOnAMission wrote: »

As I said in my original post (the one that for some reason caused SHIPSHAPE to label me a liar),

I didn't label you a liar though did I?

I said I didn't believe you, you may have been mistaken. Very different.

Please don't say something I didn't.



As for SHIPSHAPE'S comments on my IAM instructor: I'm not quite sure what you believe qualifies you to make such comments, but I can assure you he certainly was a good instructor and that he trains police drivers.

Over the past 20 years my work has involved contact with the traffic police, the judiciary, instructors (inc IAM) etc, again, not once has any good (which is what I initially stated) instructor advised flashing of headlights, esp on a busy motorway, it just isn't done.

He also stressed the point to me, as mentioned by others, that to flash your lights in certain situations (e.g. letting people out of junctions, thanking people) is not right. This is absolutely down to the reason you state: light flashing is open to misinterpretation. On the outside lane of a motorway there is less chance of this misinterpretation.

And what about vehicles travelling in the opposite direction?

How can you possibly make this statement unless you have asked every single driver coming from the opposite way what they thought your flash meant?

An impossible task which makes your statement quite meaningless.


I certianly would not "routinely flash my lights at every car in front of me, on motorways, in the city". In fact I'd probably never do it in a city/built up area if there would be a high chance of other motorists misinterpreting my signal. On a road like a motorway, where a flash is an obvious indication only to the car immediately ahead of you, I would do so in the right circumstances.

See above.

You may intend it for the car in front but there may well be dozens travelling on the opposite carriageway who think otherwise.

They may think there is a speed trap ahead, so the first car breaks suddenly from doing 90+ to under 70 in a split second, then the next, and the next...

This exact scenario was deemed a possible cause of a multi car pile up on a motorway that resulted in a fatality on one of the traffic cop shows on tv.

Those circumstance would be when a car is sitting in the outside lane with space to pull in to their left, who hasn't noticed me and pulled in after I've been behind them for a bit..

Not your job I'm afraid.

You don't know they haven't noticed you, how would you?

70mph is annoying for some.

The police police the roads, not you. And if someone has indeed not seen you and is travelling at a slow speed then it for the police to deal with.

If no police see this then you just have to put up with it.

Again, your IAM instructor, in my experience, was sadly lacking, no good instructor ignores the above I have pointed out.

PollyOnAMission

PollyOnAMission wrote: »

Direct quote from Highway Code:

110
Flashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.

No comment on this, SHIPSHAPE?

SHIPSHAPE

PollyOnAMission wrote: »

Direct quote from Highway Code:

110
Flashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.

Where does it state this should be done on a motorway?

(Bearing in mind my previous post)

If one is driving on a motorway, especially a busy motorway as in this thread, it is absolutely certain one will be behind, and in front, of other vehicles.

The only people who flash their lights in this situation are the idiots who think they can drive 70+ no matter what the conditions.

You don't need to flash your presence, it's hardly surprising to find other vehicles on a busy motorway!

It would soley be to encourage, or bully, the vehicle in front.

SHIPSHAPE

PollyOnAMission wrote: »

No comment on this, SHIPSHAPE?

Plus the fact this is only an advisory from HC.

Road Traffic law supercedes everything, other than what one must do in the HC along with it.

Road traffic law does not prompt any driver to flash for any reason, end of.

And certainly not on a motorway.

Good instructors know this which is why good instructors would never advise flashing of headlights.

almillar

SHIPSHAPE, yes I have quoted the HC several times, and have drawn my information from what it DOES say, and other sources. You seem to come from the angle that if teh HC doesn't say something, you shouldn't do it. I think it's deliberately vague and doesn't give ANY example of when to flash headlights. Does that mean that you NEVER use this perfectly valid option, just because you haven't been given an example?
My advice is not specific to motorways, what I say about outside lane hogs is appropriate to dual carraigeways too. Again, I haven't seen any 'official authrititive source' specifically mention flashing lights on a motorway, but I don't think they have to.
I don't care how long you've been in transport related industries, just because you've never been told you can flash people you think are in the wrong lane (alerting them to your presence) doesn't mean you can't do it. You can wait for official instructions if you like, but I'm sure your local IAM or RoSPA group will give you similar advice to me, whether you like it or not.
Flashing round a bend?! That's not much use in the daytime is it?!
Again, it's NOT intimidation or bullying to flash someone. You should NOT flash them if they are overtaking. If the lane to the left is empty, then go ahead. They're in the wrong lane, have lost concentration, and should move over, whether they THINK they're doing 50, 65, 69, 70 or 75. This isn't about speed, it's about lane discipline.
And again, I'm not policing the roads, just trying to let everyone get to their destination at the speed they choose.
I take on board your comment about the OP being on a busy motorway. The car in front should have moved into that one gap, and a flash was valid if it was big enough and the speed differential was small enough - ie if they could pull in, then back out again, without having to change speed. Again, this is only valid if there was nothing in front of the car in front, not if it was a queuing situation.
Since you're so keen on being told things explicitly in black and white, why don't you go and find me the law or advice that says you shouldn't flash a car in front in the wrong lane? Until then, I'll keep flashing if I deem it appropriate. If you're the one in front, wake up and look left, there's probably an empty lane beside you.

dtmark

I do a lot of motorway driving at night when traffic is light, on the M25 which has three and four lane sections.

I can drive for literally miles in lane 1 at 70-ish and pass dozens of cars. Lane 1 is empty for as far as the eye can see.

Particularly in the 4 lane sections - it's common to find people doing 65 in "lane 3 of 4".

The last time I moved from 1-2-3-4 to overtake someone in lane 3 a car came up behind me very, very fast (estimate well over 125mph) and sat tailgating me flashing their headlights.

I just carried on nudging it up to near 80, passed, went all the way back to lane 1.

The car behind me turned out to be a police car. (No blue flashing lights and in no emergency. I did not "cut it up", it was barely in sight when I began to move out, it was just going way, way too fast)

I've noticed the Police generally do tailgate and flash their lights at people - have seen that multiple times, so if it's right for the class 1 police drivers.... but I can't be bothered since it almost never works.

When weather is poor I'd assert that it's clearly safer to pass in lane 1 than to pull off that maneuver involving six lane changes.

And in any event, if you watch the traffic pattern on the four lane sections typically lanes 2 and 4 are the fastest moving in many sections anyway.

Bongles

SHIPSHAPE wrote: »

No IAM [STRIKE]instructor[/STRIKE] observer will advise use of headlight flashing in any circumstance.

[efa]

Err... Hello . I would, and so would any other observer I've had this discussion with.

It is beyond question that letting someone know you are there is, in general, an acceptable use for a headlamp flash - indeed it's the only use of a headlamp flash permitted by the HC. But it's only acceptable if it's done appropriately.

So how might it be done in the specific situation of being held up by someone who is in the wrong lane on a motorway? You need to keep in the forefront of your mind that headlamp flashing is a tool used by aggressive, impatient drivers and by self-appointed road police. You must not allow yourself to drift even the slightest amount into either of those wholly inappropriate mindsets, and you do not want to be perceived that way either.

A headlamp flash, like any other signal, is a means of communicating with people around you when you can't actually speak to them. If you could speak to the driver in front, you would simply say, "excuse me, do you know I am here?" in the hope that, once they realised you were there they would do the right thing by moving over to let you past. You would not say "get out of my way" and you would not say "you are in the wrong lane" so you need to make sure you are not thinking those things when you are planning your interaction with them. Patience is your friend .

That's the attitude bit dealt with. How does it work in practice? Simple really:

1. Follow at a constant, safe, non-threatening distance.
2. Obviously it is only reasonable to expect that they might move over if they have a clear opportunity to do so. When you assess whether the gap to the left is big enough for them to move in to, add a bit - they might be more conservative than you.
3. If there is a clear opportunity for them to move over, with even more space than you think is necessary, wait and see if they take it.
4. If not, it's time to communicate. But first consider the effect your signal might have on other drivers around. Could someone else see it and misinterpret it? Is there someone you might dazzle? If there are no concerns on that front, give the driver ahead a headlamp flash (from the safe, non-threatening following distance you've been maintaining). Opinions differ on whether it's a few quick flashes or one longer one. I can see the argument that flashing on and off is probably more eye-catching, but I feel it can look like impatience, even if that's not what is meant, so I tend to prefer one longer flash.
5. If they move over, thank them for their cooperation as you drive past.

I'd be surprised if you got a substanitally different view on the matter from anyone involved in the IAM/RoSPA advanced driving world. I don't think I've come across one.

If the driver ahead doesn't respond to the first flash I'd consider a second. I think I probably wouldn't do any more than that. I can see how they might miss the first flash, but if they've not responded twice I think there's a good chance they're either oblivious or they intend to stay in that lane regardless of my presence. I can't honestly remember the last time this approach still hadn't worked for me after a second flash.

almillar

Thanks for that Bongles, very well put. Have a good read SHIPSHAPE, and next time you're speaking with someone from the IAM, ask them about this!

kylehp04

Ok, so I may be a little bit harsh here but if she isn't overtaking in the overtaking lane to the point where she is being undertaken and causing traffic build up, then she has no business being in that lane.

So in that situation I'm afraid I would have flashed my headlights....maybe she is not aware of the situation and just needs a signal to pay more attention and get into the appropriate lane.

SHIPSHAPE

Bongles wrote: »

[efa]

Err... Hello . I would, and so would any other observer I've had this discussion with.

It is beyond question that letting someone know you are there is, in general, an acceptable use for a headlamp flash - indeed it's the only use of a headlamp flash permitted by the HC. But it's only acceptable if it's done appropriately.

So how might it be done in the specific situation of being held up by someone who is in the wrong lane on a motorway? .

Well, you make a thoughtful considered response, however, I don't agree with you.

I'm sure you have read the OP's initial posting although you may not have read it carefully, which is essentially what this ping pong of a debate is about.

The OP was on a busy motorway, it was a working day morning, it was rush hour & he had only one option throughout his journey to undertake (if he wished to, though not advised).

This we know, just read it.

Now, you may point out the HC permits 'headlight flash to make your presence known...'

You even say it 'is only acceptable if it's done appropriately.'

However, your statement, highlighted in red is all telling, '...held up...'

One is often held up by a car in front on a busy motorway!

You would only be flashing your headlights to try not to be held up, to get on your way.

You do not need to flash your headlights to make your presence known, who on earth needs prompting that a car is behind you on a busy motorway?

You have admitted what it is really for- that is not to be held up, despite it being a busy motorway where even the OP says there was only one real chance to change lanes!

That is not appropriate use of flashing headlights, you do not need to do it, in this situation.

And I will validate this further.

Scenario-

Just as in this thread, a busy motorway with a car driving at 65mph in front of you.

You decide to flash them.

At this point, there is a speed trap on the opposite side.

However, unfortunately for you, there is a further trap on your side to pull in drivers who flash a warning to drivers on the opposite carriageway, which is becoming more widespread.

Now, your excuse to the cops will be that you were not warning other drivers of a speed trap but you were in fact 'making your presence known' to the car in front of you doing 65mph on a busy motorway!

I can tell you now, no cop will accept your excuse as an 'appropriate use of headlights' in the way you have posted your response.

You would get done, end of.