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On now, "This World" on Greece.
Comments
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I watched it live. I was shocked, not just at the lines of people waiting to be fed but at the state of what you think of as a beautiful city. The desolate old Olympic village which is still getting paid for, and yet when asked to choose people still wanted the euro.
Its a long time since Athens has been a beautiful city. It was a dump when I went there in the early 90s, its got a bit better now post olympic cleanups.
Some of the wealthy suburbs are lovely but you'll have to drive quite far for them.
The problem with Greece is that it has been very poor for a very long time, its not a recent development.
If you lend a very poor country vast amounts of money over a short period of time it shouldnt be that surprising when they cant pay it back. As they cant inflate, the only sensible solution to Greece is to withdraw from the Euro and default fully on their debts.0 -
If the point of leaving the euro is to print money because the country has no credit, then the money will be wallpaper and the exercise will be self-defeating. Nowadays, currency is backed by credit, whichever currency it is.ruggedtoast wrote: »As they cant inflate, the only sensible solution to Greece is to withdraw from the Euro and default fully on their debts.
The only way to sort Greece is for its friends to extend it enough cheap credit while it gets its act together. If it hasn't got any friends, playing games with the currency won't help. Only Oxfam will help."It will take, five, 10, 15 years to get back to where we need to be. But it's no longer the individual banks that are in the wrong, it's the banking industry as a whole." - Steven Cooper, head of personal and business banking at Barclays, talking to Martin Lewis0 -
What do you expect to happen?.
Exactly what's happening.
The Greek budget deficit rose 52% between Q1 2011 and Q1 2012, because austerity is crippling the economy, reducing tax income, and increasing welfare costs.
NGO's are proclaiming the results of this a "humanitarian disaster", and we're now seeing food and medical aid programmes being set up in a modern European country instead of in Africa.
And of course a neo-nazi party, complete with Swastika-like flag and raised arm salutes, has just been elected to 21 seats in the Greek parliament.
Whatever the solution is, this isn't it....“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
-- President John F. Kennedy”0 -
I dunno.........
The Euro zone either keeps bailing them out or expel them, neither option is palatable to big swathes of people.
I think they'll need to break the single market in order to fix it, new ways need to be looked at for helping Greece [and others] become competitive again. Possibly looking at allowing some sort of version of a free-trade zone and allowing preferential treatment for inward investors?
Some way of allowing them to work their way out of the mess rather than the [what seems like] the only other two desperate solutions to the crisis.
I'm sure some sort of managed and controlled system could be looked at, sure it'll cost the EU [in many ways] but it may well be a cheaper option and may well actually look like it would have an end.
Continually giving them money without helping them to help themselves is just putting our finger in the dyke.0 -
Exactly. If member states no longer have the knobs and levers to manage their own economies, then it becomes necessary for the centre to take on the management of national and regional economies to maintain internal balances. Things can't just be left unmanaged.I'm sure some sort of managed and controlled system could be looked at, sure it'll cost the EU [in many ways]
This might mean, for instance, German firms being bribed with federal money to move production to southern Europe."It will take, five, 10, 15 years to get back to where we need to be. But it's no longer the individual banks that are in the wrong, it's the banking industry as a whole." - Steven Cooper, head of personal and business banking at Barclays, talking to Martin Lewis0 -
Jennifer_Jane wrote: »Despite this, I do feel for them, but they still don't seem to be getting it.
It is quite sad to see people living in such conditions, yet they still don't seem to get that certain obligations go along with being in the Euro.
Nice to see relatively coherent economics stuff from the BBC rather than socialist drivel from Stephanie Flanders.0 -
You mean, like the obligation to let the Germans bankrupt your country?It is quite sad to see people living in such conditions, yet they still don't seem to get that certain obligations go alone with being in the Euro.
Obligations cut both ways. The EU needs to get its act together to protect member states from each other."It will take, five, 10, 15 years to get back to where we need to be. But it's no longer the individual banks that are in the wrong, it's the banking industry as a whole." - Steven Cooper, head of personal and business banking at Barclays, talking to Martin Lewis0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »Exactly what's happening.
The Greek budget deficit rose 52% between Q1 2011 and Q1 2012, because austerity is crippling the economy, reducing tax income, and increasing welfare costs.
NGO's are proclaiming the results of this a "humanitarian disaster", and we're now seeing food and medical aid programmes being set up in a modern European country instead of in Africa.
And of course a neo-nazi party, complete with Swastika-like flag and raised arm salutes, has just been elected to 21 seats in the Greek parliament.
Whatever the solution is, this isn't it....
Maybe that is part of the problem. Greece is not a modern European state, but basically a third world state that happens to be in Europe and has decided to live the life through borrowing.
Is there any fundamental reason that Greeks should have a much higher standard of living than Africans?
Bit like the people we see here who work in Tescos but live a footballers lifestyle for a year or two until the credit cards all max out.0 -
You mean, like the obligation to let the Germans bankrupt your country?
Obligations cut both ways. The EU needs to get its act together to protect member states from each other.
I agree. Germany, perhaps the biggest beneficiary of the Euro, is foisting on Greece exactly what was foisted on it after WW1.
However, Greece has not been complying:
Tens of billions of Euros of taxes are still uncollected.
Reforms of the patronage system are not happening.
Greece cannot get their act together.0 -
You mean, like the obligation to let the Germans bankrupt your country?
Obligations cut both ways. The EU needs to get its act together to protect member states from each other.
Why all this blaming Germany stuff.
Nobody (or country) was forced to borrow money to buy Grerman consumer goods. This was a matter of choice. If people chose to do it beyong their means, they need to stop blaming others.0
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