On now, "This World" on Greece.

chucky

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Speaking of which.....

Originally Posted by ILW
Are they paying their taxes now?

Went a few years ago and nobody would accept anything but cash.

There are some crazy people in this world trying to make generalisations that nobody pays their taxes in Greece.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Sorry Graham, I can't quite believe what you're suggesting.

You want to make a terrible situation much, much, much worse, because then you might get some growth.

But even with that growth they'll still be worse off than today for maybe a decade or more.

Just so we're clear, why exactly is that better?

How do you fix a poverty crisis by impoverishing more people?

No response from Graham then.....

sims01

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Yes, but that's insignificant by comparison.

Watch the programme on iplayer.

Also insignificant compared to the 45 million Americans on food stamps? Not exactly the same thing of course, but still...

oldvicar

Aren't 80 per cent or so of people in UK receiving some sort of state benefit (financial assistance) too ?

The_White_Horse

they got what they deserved. second world country trying to live like a first world country on borrowed money - no one pays tax. it was always going to end in tears. they should pay back what they owe, or cut them adrift with no further help.

let it be a warning to you that want a lefty govt. this is what happens when you spend too much, collect very little in tax (because it all comes from public sector, which isn't really paying anything is it). oh well, france will probably be next if hollande does what he said he would. i have a feeling he won't though.

oldvicar

I only caught a few minutes of this live (will watch a repeat or on iplayer) and was very impressed by the Greek people Portillo interviewed. They came across as sensible, well educated, people who understood the situation and will probably have a bright future once they stop dancing to Germany's tune.

matbe

How do you fix a poverty crisis by impoverishing more people?[/QUOTE]


I think a more pertinent question is how do you fix a debt/interest death spiral by borrowing more money at higher interest rates ?

Generali

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Sorry Graham, I can't quite believe what you're suggesting.

You want to make a terrible situation much, much, much worse, because then you might get some growth.

But even with that growth they'll still be worse off than today for maybe a decade or more.

Just so we're clear, why exactly is that better?

How do you fix a poverty crisis by impoverishing more people?

What do you expect to happen? The vast majority of the Greek national debt has been written off and Governments across The EU and the world (via the IMF) have agreed to lend Greece yet more money at interest rates they could never hope to get in the market.


Who should be giving Greece more money? There's no point lending them even more because they have little chance of repaying the bailout funds. The next default is mathematically likely to occur in 2015-6 although politics could bring that date forward.

Mr_Mumble

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

How do you fix a poverty crisis by impoverishing more people?

You impoverish people no matter what is decided, it is a trade-off. Forgive debt and people in northern Europe - specifically poorer people who rely on the state - will lose out through no fault of their own with no democratic legitimacy whatsoever.

If you give more handouts/bailouts to the Greeks then you're reinforcing and incentivising bad behaviour.

Also, I'm amazed you were not aware most people in Greece want to keep the Euro. This is the core problem imho. The Greek people want their cake (keep the Euro) and eat it (renege on all their debt - now overwhelmingly held by other Euro nations).

An excellent article on the political parties in Greece:
http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite3_1_03/05/2012_440466

note:

"KKE (Communist Party of Greece) is the only party to openly favor a Greek exit from the eurozone and the European Union"

The "Communist" party did poorly, for an anti-establishment and anti-austerity party, in last week's elections getting 8.5% of the vote up from 7.5% in 2009. By contrast the "Independent Conservatives" gained more than 10% and were founded this year!

Degenerate

Mr_Mumble wrote: »

Also, I'm amazed you were not aware most people in Greece want to keep the Euro. This is the core problem imho. The Greek people want their cake (keep the Euro) and eat it (renege on all their debt - now overwhelmingly held by other Euro nations).

I think what they're really not grasping are the implications of Greece still having a primary deficit. They could repudiate their entire stock of debt, remain in the Euro, and the austerity would still have to get even worse because they require further borrowing just to keep the state running. No-one would lend to them and they simply wouldn't have the money to pay all their wages, pensions etc.