16hours to 24

A_Flock_Of_Sheep

Sixer wrote: »

The rules for what can be reported as "remunerative work" for self-employed people haven't changed. They are not going to change. Self-employed people aren't required to earn NMW. This isn't going to change.

People can earn under NMW through self-employment and still claim tax credits. This isn't going to change.

HMRC have been investigating people who raise a number of risk flags. So if you say one little Avon round gives rise to 30+ hours of remunerative work and this is your only income, questions will be asked and earning the equivalent of NMW may be used as one indicator among several that your claim is fraudulent.

But if you're employed for a good number of hours and you also do an Avon round which you say takes you 6 hours a week, then you are unlikely to be investigated. Why? Because a) the Avon round isn't your only income and b) common sense tells you it probably takes about 6 hours a week.

I am so glad someone has finally explained this so wonderfully. Respect. My advice to the OP was to do something self employed to plug the extra 8 hours required to gain WTC. There is nothing illegal in this. In fact anyone with the gumption to go out and do something to make money should be applauded not condemned. She is not as you say declaring an Avon Round as 24 hours a week but any self employed activity (which can be multiple things) as simply 8 hours a week or 1.6 hours Monday to Friday in addition to already "employed" work.

Working Tax Credit is a subsidy. No different in my mind to the Common Agricultural Farming Subsidies, subsidies to the railways, subsidies for solar panels, airport subsidies and overseas aid.

Sixer

A_Flock_Of_Sheep wrote: »

I am so glad someone has finally explained this so wonderfully. Respect. My advice to the OP was to do something self employed to plug the extra 8 hours required to gain WTC. There is nothing illegal in this. In fact anyone with the gumption to go out and do something to make money should be applauded not condemned. She is not as you say declaring an Avon Round as 24 hours a week but any self employed activity (which can be multiple things) as simply 8 hours a week or 1.6 hours Monday to Friday in addition to already "employed" work.

Working Tax Credit is a subsidy. No different in my mind to the Common Agricultural Farming Subsidies, subsidies to the railways, subsidies for solar panels, airport subsidies and overseas aid.

What's happened is that some people around here have seen the posts about compliance investigations on low income, self-employed people and extrapolated extreme conclusions from them.

HMRC *are* targetting low income self-employed people. But only those with tax credit claims and whose only household income is the self-employment. Even then, if someone can prove the hours they work, they will still be entitled to tax credits. For example, a friend of mine runs a convenience store. She's a single parent. Her profit last year was under £10k (it's not a good time for convenience stores). She remains entitled to tax credits because she can prove a 30+ hour working week even though she makes under NMW.

HMRC regularly have targetted compliance drives. Sometimes they pick a profession known for a proportion of dodgy self assessments (plumbers was a recent one). Currently, they're having a drive on the low income self-employed with WTC claims.

That's all there is to it.

BigAunty

A_Flock_Of_Sheep wrote: »

...My advice to the OP was to do something self employed to plug the extra 8 hours required to gain WTC. There is nothing illegal in this. In fact anyone with the gumption to go out and do something to make money should be applauded not condemned. ...

In my opinion, the self employed should never start up a business before writing a thorough business plan to determine if it is feasible, understand how they are going to market it, analyse competitors, start up costs and cash flow.

Also, it requires excellent record keeping and administrative skills to comply with tax laws, client management, financial analysis.

The problem with WTC with some SE claimants is that it has casualised the approach to setting up a business because it is pitched to them as 'oh, it's easy, just ring the HMRC to register as SE, stick a few cards up in news agent windows for x service, or just flog a bit of tat on ebay. Just round it up to say it takes you a few of hours to buy the goods, a bit of time to prepare and market it online and a couple to despatch and bobs your uncle, you're quids in with your benefits'.

We are now seeing many become unstuck through HMRC investigations because they had no rigour at all in their time and record keeping. They know their way around a WTC form but that's about as entreprenurial as they get.

Sixer

BigAunty wrote: »

In my opinion, the self employed should never start up a business before writing a thorough business plan to determine if it is feasible, understand how they are going to market it, analyse competitors, start up costs and cash flow.

Also, it requires excellent record keeping and administrative skills to comply with tax laws, client management, financial analysis.

The problem with WTC with some SE claimants is that it has casualised the approach to setting up a business because it is pitched to them as 'oh, it's easy, just ring the HMRC to register as SE, stick a few cards up in news agent windows for x service, or just flog a bit of tat on ebay. Just round it up to say it takes you a few of hours to buy the goods, a bit of time to prepare and market it online and a couple to despatch and bobs your uncle, you're quids in with your benefits'.

We are now seeing many become unstuck through HMRC investigations because they had no rigour at all in their time and record keeping. They know their way around a WTC form but that's about as entreprenurial as they get.

I do agree.

But, in terms of this thread, we should also highlight the very big difference between a ludicrous "business" that anyone can see isn't a proper "business" and for which people lie/exaggerate the working being done, and a mini-job via self-employment, taken up both to increase income and maintain entitlement to benefits (whether tax credits or the forthcoming UC).

The former is fraudulent and everyone wants to see the end of it.

The latter is not only legal but desirable, and indeed is the intended consequence of government reforms. The administration WANTS people to take on mini-jobs to supplement their income.

BigAunty

Sixer wrote: »

...

The latter is not only legal but desirable, and indeed is the intended consequence of government reforms. The administration WANTS people to take on mini-jobs to supplement their income.

My reservation about seeing this as a 'mini job' is the institutionalising nature of long-term benefit dependency and the way that SE WTC is, for some, primarily about doing the least they can get away with the lowest possible income, in order to maximise benefit entitlements, without the hassle of claiming JSA.

For some, there is no drive to increase profits, to become self-sufficient, it's merely a way to parachute into other benefits in a long term capacity.

Having a long term crutch in terms of being cushioned by benefits via a SE role that pays mere pin money, is totally anathema to running a real business.

Someone on long term JSA transitioning to self-employment is subject to mentoring and approval of a viable a business plan before being eligible for the new enterprise allowance scheme. Other people just sleepwalk into self employment via the WTC route.

A_Flock_Of_Sheep

BigAunty wrote: »

My reservation about seeing this as a 'mini job' is the institutionalising nature of long-term benefit dependency and the way that SE WTC is, for some, primarily about doing the least they can get away with the lowest possible income, in order to maximise benefit entitlements, without the hassle of claiming JSA.

For some, there is no drive to increase profits, to become self-sufficient, it's merely a way to parachute into other benefits in a long term capacity.

Having a long term crutch in terms of being cushioned by benefits via a SE role that pays mere pin money, is totally anathema to running a real business.



Someone on long term JSA transitioning to self-employment is subject to mentoring and approval of a viable a business plan before being eligible for the new enterprise allowance scheme. Other people just sleepwalk into self employment via the WTC route.

Do you have the same opinion about the Farming Subsidies? Perhaps as you think all farmers should make a sound business plan and those that can't should just quit.

Your reservation must exist about long term subsidy dependency? This is simply a crutch to make a farm viable.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what business plan is required to do an Avon round for eight hours a week?

Register with Avon
Obtain catalogues
Deliver catalogues
Take orders when you collect catalogues
Deliver orders
Pocket commission.

There business plan achieved.

BigAunty

A_Flock_Of_Sheep wrote: »

Do you have the same opinion about the Farming Subsidies? Perhaps as you think all farmers should make a sound business plan and those that can't should just quit.

Your reservation must exist about long term subsidy dependency? This is simply a crutch to make a farm viable.

Why is a method to keep our countryside viable, which has all sorts of benefits for the nation and the environment, compared with someone selling tat on ebay for all their working life so they can trouser housing benefit, WTC and council tax rebates.

Many farmers pay taxes and work long and hard in a dangerous role, they are contributors. Many SE WTC claimants don't pay a penny in tax and the hardest moment of their working day is a paper cut applying for benefits or the postman waking them up to deliver a parcel.

A_Flock_Of_Sheep

BigAunty wrote: »

Why is a method to keep our countryside viable, which has all sorts of benefits for the nation and the environment, compared with someone selling tat on ebay for all their working life so they can trouser housing benefit, WTC and council tax rebates.

Many farmers pay taxes and work long and hard in a dangerous role, they are contributors. Many SE WTC claimants don't pay a penny in tax and the hardest moment of their working day is a paper cut applying for benefits or the postman waking them up to deliver a parcel.

How about we scrap tax credits all together and raise the minimum wage to tweleve pounds an hour. I would rather see that then all the jolly tax payers can save a fortune on the tax credits bill.

A_Flock_Of_Sheep

BigAunty wrote: »

Many SE WTC claimants don't pay a penny in tax

Sounds very like the super rich in this country. Something which Osborne was unaware of. Allegedly.

Charityworker

I haven't read through all the posts but have you explored the self employed option? I work 16 hours a week and stood to lose all the wtc. Both me and husband have been looking for full time work for years but never been successful. So I have started a small business doing make up, nail art etc. I got a diploma in beauty therapy when I first left school so I decided to start using it. The start up costs are quite small. A make up kit, business cards and public liability insurance and your off. There must be plenty of things you could do from home with your kids such as pet sitting, making things and selling them, virtual secretary, dog walking. 8 hours isnt really a lot to fill. Or how about going round charity shops looking for vintage or costume jewellery and selling it on for a profit at craft fairs at tge weekend when your husband can look after the kids. Or doing temporary tattoos and hair wrapping. The list is endless. Remember to register as self employed as soon as you start.