cemetary, council and removal of personal obejcts from grave.

atrixblue.-MFR-.

Welshwoofs wrote: »

A good argument until you consider that the Op came looking for advice on an Internet forum...thereby disproving both your theories.

As I said, their regulations state 28 days notice so if the council haven't done that then there's obviously grounds to complain.

i didnt come for advice i came for Opinion and also a rant.

tell me do you sit on the coucil website everyday looking for things like this, especially as its a consecrated ground where you believe morals and ethics should take precedence over some stupid wanna be like america cabinate meeting legislation?

no pre warning so no need to search for the information, had we had pre warning we may have been able to voice concerns and call a meeting with the local MP and councellors.

i was looking for a very public notfication, not some tucked away PDF (that some do not have access to adobe reader BTW) and how many of the elderly or infirm have access to a PC? but there wasnt any none, the coucil are hiding behind the fact they sent letter to ALL in december quite convienient that royal mail was at it busiest time and most unreliable but still 90 people who were present at the cemetary today had no letter at all whats the odds? they have a NEWSLINE news paper no mention of this type of planned works in that, they have access to local media and papers no mention there to them and not even posting a notice on the gates of the cemetary to notify visitors all to wich they agree they didnt do appart from sending letters in the post to wich they cannot back up, to the media when contacted. if this was done legally and respectfully, we have a police officer who has made an appointment to come and interview and take statement from OH about this, so obviously the coucil cannot satisfy to the police that the action they took was legal.

QuackQuackOops

You should all get together and put everything back how it was every day and see how long it takes the council to get fed up of moving it all.
Then when they try to penalise you all, what a fine media circus that will be. There will be no way the council will get away with it.

Welshwoofs

atrixblue.-MFR-. wrote: »

tell me do you sit on the coucil website everyday looking for things like this, especially as its a consecrated ground where you believe morals and ethics should take precedence over some stupid wanna be like america cabinate meeting legislation?

No, I don't sit looking at websites every day, however if the council do something a 'bit odd' then I go and look at their website to find out why. Morals generally have nothing to do with local laws and regulations so you're tilting at windmills there.

there wasnt any none, the coucil are hiding behind the fact they sent letter to ALL in december quite convienient that royal mail was at it busiest time and most unreliable but still 90 people who were present at the cemetary today had no letter at all whats the odds?

So if the council maintain they sent a letter and 90 people say they didn't then that would surely be grounds to do a mass complaint.

they have a NEWSLINE news paper no mention of this type of planned works in that, they have access to local media and papers no mention there to them and not even posting a notice on the gates of the cemetary to notify visitors all to wich they agree they didnt do appart from sending letters in the post to wich they cannot back up, to the media when contacted. if this was done legally and respectfully, we have a police officer who has made an appointment to come and interview and take statement from OH about this, so obviously the coucil cannot satisfy to the police that the action they took was legal.

Honestly? There's not point railing at me because I have absolutely no vested interest about the whole thing. You posted looking for opinions and I posted a quote from the regulations which would give you some grounds to complain on. IMO you'll get a lot further tackling the council on solid grounds such as insufficient notice than you will with general rants and raves about morals.

atrixblue.-MFR-.

Welshwoofs wrote: »

No, I don't sit looking at websites every day, however if the council do something a 'bit odd' then I go and look at their website to find out why. Morals generally have nothing to do with local laws and regulations so you're tilting at windmills there.




So if the council maintain they sent a letter and 90 people say they didn't then that would surely be grounds to do a mass complaint.




Honestly? There's not point railing at me because I have absolutely no vested interest about the whole thing. You posted looking for opinions and I posted a quote from the regulations which would give you some grounds to complain on. IMO you'll get a lot further tackling the council on solid grounds such as insufficient notice than you will with general rants and raves about morals.

bye bye then, thanks for your post with the info.

to all other the MP has called a meeting at markham welfair at 6pm monday if anyone in the local area wishes to attend reading this post, or show support.

the person headlining this project in the council has gone to ground no one can get hold of him, and i woulldnt be suprised if he dont turn up monday night, aparently works will carry on monday as normal so anyone wishing to collect personal items please go up and protect them from being damaged.

Tiddlywinks

I don't necessarily think the council went about it the right way but I do think there should be some set rules about what can and can't go on a grave as it is a shared space.

Having just buried my mum I don't want to visit whilst the pain for me is quite raw and find that the grave next door looks like a fun fair or something. I mean no disrespect but I do think that some people can be OTT and than impacts on others.

We all have different tastes but we are talking about a graveyard - some small tokens yes, but football banners, beer kegs or whatever - no thanks. That's my opinion as someone who is visiting a cemetary to mourn my loss.

thorsoak

Whilst I appreciate that some people mourn their loved ones by placing solar lights, silk flowers, teddy bears, windmills, windchimes etc on their graves, I personally would hate to have buried my darling OH in an area like that - he didn't like such things, and thought them tasteless and brash.

So he's buried in a green, woodland cemetary, where there are none of the above, we can visit the grave, which is marked by a simple wooden cross which will, eventually rot away - and a tree has been planted at the head of his grave - and at the heads of all other graves in the cemetary. Eventually this will become a woodland area, where hopefully instead of plastic windchimes, there will be birdsong, instead of silk flowers there will be woodland flowers. This is of comfort to us.

But I do appreciate that other people do want to show their grief by placing artifacts over their loved ones graves - maybe they too should be able to have their equivalent of the woodland cemetary.

Tiddlywinks

thorsoak wrote: »

But I do appreciate that other people do want to show their grief by placing artifacts over their loved ones graves - maybe they too should be able to have their equivalent of the woodland cemetary.

The problem though is where a person chooses a plot in a cemetary noting that they have strict rules only then to find that, over time, the rules aren't enforced and you end up in a carnival village.

The cemetary in question appears to have had such rules and over time standards were allowed to slip... now the council wants to return to those original standards and some now, perhaps understandably, feel upset.

Had the original standards been maintained then everyone would have known what was expected and wouldn't now be in this position.

coolcait

Welshwoofs wrote: »

You posted looking for opinions and I posted a quote from the regulations which would give you some grounds to complain on. IMO you'll get a lot further tackling the council on solid grounds such as insufficient notice than you will with general rants and raves about morals.

This ^^^

I appreciate that this is distressing, but you'll get nowhere by ranting about desecration of graves etc.

This is a council cemetery, not consecrated land. You may not like what has been done, you may prefer to see personal items on the graves, and the sight of bare earth may revive distressing memories. However, what has been done is not desecration.

If the council had daubed insulting slogans on the graves, or dug up remains, then you could have talked about desecration.

The fact that the police are coming to take a statement does not, of itself, mean that the council has committed an offence. It means that the police have received a complaint, and are investigating it. Once they have completed those investigations, they will decide if there are gorunds for belieivng that an offence has been committed.

Like Welshwoofs said, you will get a lot further by making a complaint/charge based on solid grounds - such as the fact that they did not give you the required period of notice, as set down by their policy.

If you wish, you can follow up the factual accusation with a description of the impact that it has had on you emotionally - including the fact that if feels as if the grave has been desecrated.

However, before you even do that, you - and the other 90 or so people you have referred to - need to be sure that the Council actually had the correct contact details for "the holder of the Exclusive Right of Burial in the plot".

Anyone who has changed address since they 'bought' the plot, but hasn't registered that change of address with the appropriate part of the Council, may well have been sent a letter - to their old address.

I do feel for the people who have been affected by this move. However, if you're going to complain effectively, then you need to do it based on facts rather than emotions. For that reason, it might be better to get someone else to help you write the complaint - maybe as a group.

mrcow

Tiddlywinks wrote: »

Having just buried my mum I don't want to visit whilst the pain for me is quite raw and find that the grave next door looks like a fun fair or something. I mean no disrespect but I do think that some people can be OTT and than impacts on others.

I don't think this is in question. No one would want that. But if the memorial is neither offensive nor over the top, who are the council to strip personal belongings from a site of mourning?

That graveyard has been stripped bare.

Whoever authorised this should be held to public account for their actions.

gregg1

atrixblue.-MFR-. wrote: »

sorry if this is in the wrong section. move if necessary.

as title.

our council caerphilly county borough, has now started to enforce a passed bill by cabinate of no personalisation of grave sites. bedwellty cemetary and others affected.

this came as a shock really as there was no information posted to people in the area of each cemetary that this was being enforced, or a local rag notifaction. i didnt even know cabinate passed this in 2008 aparently.

my parters mothers grave has been affected, we had solar lights and pillows on the grave itself wich have been removed, apparently there should be recycling bin with the items in for loved ones to collect when visiting but there isnt one with the items in at my OH grave. they have taken a layer of top soil off the grave site removing any stone that we had placed to mark the grave site. this is hugely distressing to my OH, its not the cost apect of this that has upset us but morally i believe taking personal items it a straw too farr.

this passed cabinate and now people who have young ones burried there cannot personalise their graves with that persons favourate items such as football reef decorations, photo frames laminted cuddly bears etc nothing they are being removed and placed in a recycling bin.

this has had a mass effect on the community, because this has been carried out with no respect, dilligence or morals. some are complaining that whilst these items have been removed they have been broken in the process or items missing.

my OH is in peices, as there wasnt much on her grave to begin with, just gravel stone a boundry and lights and a pillow and flower pot, everything has no gone except for the flower pot and the grave looks fresh and has brought back memories of her mum passing and the sore and upsetting time she was lost and burried.

shame on this council, and shame on those who carried out this horrendous clean up did they not think how this would affect people and do it with respect and care, your not cleaning out an attick !!!!!!!! have some respect.

rant over.

Whilst I sympathise to some extent and agree maybe it could have been handled a little more sympathetically (and I understand why parents of children perhaps should be alowed a little more leeway in this respect), I have to say that I have had a huge problem with my father's grave because of the lack of consideration shown by others when they display hoards of items which clutter up the graves.

The grave on one side of his a huge display of various items such as windchimes, lights, statues etc on it. On one occasion I arrived to find the relatives had erected a white picket fence all around the grave (you are not even allowed to have a kerbstone round the grave due to the regulations). They had not merely restricted it to their own grave though. They had gone halfway down my father's and halfway down the grave on the other side thereby claiming the space of another grave. I had them forced to remove it but the other stuff just looks so tacky. Why not just remember someone with some nice flowers or a plant.

I am constantly having to remove items which they place overlapping my father's grave. And they sit on the grave and smoke and drop their fag butts on our plot and leave their drinks bottles behind when they visit. The grave looks like a tip and it makes me so angry when I go there.

The reason for the restrictions, certainly at the cemetary my dad is buried, is that it does not allow the lawn mowers full access.

There have to be some restrictions and you can't please everyone all the time I am afraid. I am sorry your OH is so upset about this though.