cemetary, council and removal of personal obejcts from grave.

georgiesmum

When we go to my sister and bil grave we take fresh flowers and tidy the grave. Ivaribly we have to move plastic flowers that the son and dil leave. Really tacky. They do it because (they said )they only go once a year and they want the grave to have flowers on it. I think the councils are right to impose a law against all the stuff that is put on graves. They have to continually move things to mow the grass. takes them twice as long.
It's a recent epidemic as is laying flowers at a road accidents. It's gone way over the top and i can't see how it helps with the grieving. The dead don't need material things.

coolcait

lostinrates wrote: »

I actuallythink its worth marking accident hot spots, In pats of france they used to be marked with black silhouettes of people...representing who had died there...so shapes of men, women or children, i have no idea how widespread this was, r indeed if it still happens. Very chilling.
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Janepig wrote: »

They are marked on Rhodes in Greece too. I was puzzled as to what the boxes on legs that we saw on many bends in the road were. They had a window in the front with oil, a candle and an picture of Jesus or Mary. We used to see them from the bus as we were travelling and many of the locals would cross themselves as we passed them. I thought they were reminders for people to go to church or something (in my naiivety - sp, sorry). On our last day there I mentioned it to someone who told me that they actually mark the spot where someone has been killed in a road accident (very prevalent on Rhodes it would seem), and I then found them quite chilling.

lostinrates wrote: »

However, if it were my family the chilling reminder of death would make me feel something was being done to stop it happening again. Dh was very lucky to walk away from a rollover last winter, about this time. We have since learned a handful of people have died or been seriously injured on that spot. Dh drives like a vicar...slow, steady and controlled, but thisis a frak few metres that due to orientation doesn't get any sun so harbours black ice which combined with a dodgy road camber was very dangerous (its being altered this year). Something not messy and distracting but warning and chilling might have warned him, and if not safe old him then the dozens of boy racers who skidded by while we and the police stood there for over an hour waiting for the car to be moved.

Leaving aside the discussion about cemetery etiquette, I'm on the side of having memorials/shrines/visible warnings at accident blackspots.

They serve a practical purpose - as long as other drivers take notice of them.

faerie~spangles

Let the dead rest in peace an don't cheapen their grave with gaudy 'shows of affection'.

gregg1

coolcait wrote: »

Leaving aside the discussion about cemetery etiquette, I'm on the side of having memorials/shrines/visible warnings at accident blackspots.

They serve a practical purpose - as long as other drivers take notice of them.

Anything that distracts drivers is not a good idea.

coolcait

gregg1 wrote: »

Anything that distracts drivers is not a good idea.

True .

Perhaps I should have said "as long as drivers take heed of them"? In the same way that drivers need to take heed of other warnings etc.

lostinrates

gregg1 wrote: »

Anything that distracts drivers is not a good idea.

Having lived in italy where there is more road signage than one can possibly read even if driving at fine miles and hour or walking, i agree, there is a point where distraction is very dangerous.

However, this is no different to a speed camera warning sign, but to me, more effective. Similarly i like those this that indicate hour speed, not penalise you but tell you. I find them very effetive. Knowing i was approaching a corner where a cluster of people had died at some point.....yeah, i would approach with caution.....probably as much or more than a sign saying 'approach withncaution' as we currently have.

Its less removed than the signs we have appearing now....there have been x accidents here in the last five years with x fatalities' and more simply and portrayed with a simple black cut out shape. And, no writing to read...the signs we are getting now have a whole paragraph on them.

They also could serve as a non gaudy mark for family.

Ranger8

The items should not have been on the grave, unfortunately the rules of this and most council run cemeteries are that on sections designated as `Lawned` anything other than a memorial stone or metal grave marker on the plot are not permitted in the interests of safety and maintenance and notice of these rules will be given when purchasing said plot.
By turning a blind eye to small items things can quickly escalate to placing illegal kerbs and chippings in and around graves which hinder maintenance, gravedigging, funeral corteges and mourners attending adjacent graves.
The graves in the photos with the items removed look as though they have been levelled through in preparation for either grass seeding or turfing which would have been the normal course of action some weeks after interment.

atrixblue.-MFR-.

meeting went well, the MP fully backs those who have been directly effected by the councils actions.

the council was not present, the police were present but there was nothing to stay for.

MP is disgusted at the actions, and what was quoted by a coucncil member to a plot owner was captured by a newspaper reporter and printed, "you own whats underneath we own whats ontop" he wasnt at the meeting either.

MP is calling for the cheif exec of the council to attend a meeting in the next week or two along with the people directly involved with the planning and execution of this works.

council has voluntarily put a block on the work untill a meeting has been held.

whilst this an emotive and sensetive situation, the council still maintain that all belongings were securely stored for collection by family members and notice was given more than 28 days before works started, wich the council maintain they sited posters at the gates, but the only poster at the gates is health and safety of headstones and that a wobble tests would be performed under the health and safety act and any headstone found to be unsafe made safe and notice given to the plot owner top arrange propper measure to make safe the headstone or the council would do this work and charge the NOK for the works carried out nothing about planned works.

i see peoples point of views regarding what is or what isnt or should be aloud on a grave. believe me, theres no windchimes hanging from tree or anything, the grave yard is peacefull and tranquil.

people grieve in different ways i respect that and if its putting plastic flowers on a grave through the winter, then who am i to judge if its tacky its thier way of grieving, if a child has died who am i to judge if they want to put a plastic windmill a few teddy's and small trinkets on the grave, causes me no harm or ill thought or to judge it being tacky and pointless and be better off all in uniformity like someone elses grave. theres not much on OH mum grave not even a headstone because the family cant afford to have one, theres a loving homemade cross with brass plaque, a border and gravel stone, its maintained through the summer every week, kept neat and tidy, our children never met their nanny W but love to visit the grave and talk to her it conforts my OH to see them do this and my OH is still grieving for her mum its hard for her to visit the grave site, even harder now looking at it that things she has placed there has been thrown in the bin like no one cared.

i personally would not like to see a military style cemetry, i firmly belive it will alter the aspect and feel of this woundefull place its so tranquil.

coolcait

I think it was helpful that a legally-trained 'local girl' posted on the Facebook page, giving some very sensible advice on the best way for people to conduct and express themselves at the public meeting. It's very easy to lose the battle for public opinion through ranting.

I'm not surpised that the MP fully backed those who were at the meeting - it's the best way to win votes .

However, if you (as a group) want to build on this, using facts, then you need to break down what it is that you are objecting to, what it is that you want to achieve, and the different approaches that you might need to achieve different goals.

Firstly, what is it that you dislike about the statements made by a Council member? The way they were worded? Or the content?

If people aren't grasping the concept of being "holder of the Exclusive Right of Burial in that plot", and the fact that this doesn't mean that they 'own' the plot, including the surface area, then the phrase "you own whats underneath we own whats on top" is a blunt, but fairly accurate summary of the situation.

If someone says that they are aiming for the cemetery to look like the American ones you see on TV, does that mean that the Council has a cunning plan to turn a little corner of Wales into the 51st state of the USA? Or, is the person trying to think of an example which most people will have seen? I think it's the latter, and if people try to spin it as the former, then they risk making themselves and their cause look foolish.

People do grieve differently, they do have different views as to what is 'appropriate'. Councils have to balance all of these different views. That's why there are laws and regulations and rules to follow.

I really don't think you have a leg to stand on in terms of challenging the Council's right to remove items from the graves.

"Flower vases will only be permitted as part of the memorial construction" (Para 33 of the Council's Cemetery Regulations). "The Council permits memorials, which are to be erected in its cemeteries to be constructed of marble, granite, slate, Portland stone or suitable marble compound and the dimensions must not exceed those, which are specified below. No other dimensions or materials what so ever will be permitted." (Para 37)

Para 41 states that the Council reserves the right from time to time to revise the regulations. Para 42 says "These regulations replace all previous regulations affecting the general management, regulations and control of the cemetery and should be read in

conjunction with the regulations set out in the Local Authorities Cemeteries Order 1977"

The whole of Section 16 of the Local Authorities Cemeteries Order 1977 describes the Council's right to remove from the cemetery and destroy various things which have been put on a grave - including kerbs, railings surrounding a grave.

You are not going to win a battle which runs 'they had no right to do this'. They had every right to do it. Don't waste your efforts taking that approach.

There is a very good chance that you will win a battle based on the fact that they did not follow their own regulations by providing 28 days notice to the holders of the Exclusive Right of Burial. However, as stated before, make sure that the contact details held by the Council were up to date.

Also, be accurate when talking about numbers. You have referred to 90 people who didn't receive a letter. Were all of those people the holders of the Exclusive Right of Burial, or were some of them family members?

However, the biggest bit of ammunition you have in challenging the way the Council has done this is the fact that they have completely failed to follow Schedule 3 of the Local Authorities Cemeteries Order 1977. They need to follow Schedule 3 before exercising any of the powers in Section 16. This includes the following:

Before exercising the powers described in article 16(2) the burial authority shall—
(a) display a notice of their intention to do so in conspicuous positions at the entrances to the cemetery and if the powers are to be exercised only in any area of the cemetery in conspicuous positions in or adjoining such area;
(b) publish the notice in two successive weeks in the newspaper or newspapers which in their opinion would secure the best publicity in the area served by the cemetery;
(c) where the area of the cemetery in which the powers are to be exercised, or any part thereof, has been consecrated or set apart for the use of a particular denomination or religious body,
notify the rural dean or persons representative of the particular denomination or religious body, and where such dean or persons within the 3 months following the notification make any representations to them, consider such representations with them; and

(d) if they have not already done so, comply with article 20(5).

Fight your battle based on the facts; point out all of the areas where the Council hasn't complied with its own guidance; quote huge chunks of the Local Authorities Cemetery Order - demonstrating that the Council didn't follow the letter of the law.

Then give an 'emotional impact statement' which makes it clear how the Council's failure to follow the law and the guidance has affected your family and others.

Beat them on that front - and I think there is a very good chance that you will - then you will be rather better placed to have the battle over what is and isn't allowed in terms of personalisation of graves.

floss2

faerie~spangles wrote: »

Let the dead rest in peace an don't cheapen their grave with gaudy 'shows of affection'.

Please remember that everyone grieves in different ways - there is no "correct" way to behave after a death, and in particular I think that unless one has experienced the loss of a child then we maybe shouldn't be criticising the way anyone who has views their child's resting place and whether it should be with or without teddies & trinkets. If they have suffered the loss, then they are carrying the burden, and if teddies & trinkets make it easier, then so be it.

I personally am of the "less is more" school of thought and believe that as I remember them every day in my own way, that I do not need to visit the crematorium memorial gardens where the ashes of both my parents are scattered. One of my brothers feels very differently to me, and "visits" our parents on a regular basis. We both respect each other's thoughts on this.

I do agree to a more aesthetically unified look though, maybe with an agreed number of personal items being permitted, which would also allow for replacement of those items that have become weather-worn or past their best with fresh new items to refresh the area for the family. Perhaps a way forward is to get involved with the local child bereavment support groups, and work with the Council's bereavment services and local hospital bereavment teams to find a common path to achieve a reasonable compromise?