Primary school putting kids "in the naughty corner" if they need the toilet

milliebear00001

Sambucus Nigra Quote:
Originally Posted by milliebear00001

An older child (such as your year 4 child) can be expected to take responsibility for going to the loo at appropriate times, unless there is a genuine reason not to - such as illness. I teach Y5 and would certainly expect children to avoid going during my teaching time.


The child in question is 6 years old.

Sparklyfairy wrote: »

I have recently learned that my children's primary school (very small village school) is putting children in the naughty corner if they use the toilet outside of break times.



I was absolutely heartbroken thinking about how my little one must have felt, needing the loo desperately but wouldn't dare ask to go for fear of being a "naughty" child, then wetting herself on several occasions..it made me feel sick. My Yr 4 also confirmed it's started to happen in her class, too.

Hmm...

thegirlintheattic

Sparklyfairy wrote: »

milliesbear, don't worry - no teacher bashing here! This particular school's headteacher, um, maybe?

thegirlintheattic, I can understanding the bunkers hiding out in the loos in secondary schools, but surely there's a member of staff patrolling them? Having a loo locked when you're desperate for it is like a horrid nightmare. Wierd approach some schools are taking, methinks! Also, according to the link Vax added, it's illegal. Secondary schools have loads of students & must provide open,working & suitable toilets...

One member of SMT 'on-call', that usually means removing naughty kids from classes or picking up kids that need speaking to, so not much time for patrolling - hence the need for the entrances to be in sight of someone. We also have 10 different Year Group toilets, so keeping an eye on all of them would take up a lot of time. All the students know which toilets are open, and as it is a small building, your never more than a minute tops away from one.

Sparklyfairy

Just to clarify - my main concern lies with my 6 yo & what happened to her. My Yr4 child confirming it happened in their class as well showed me it was happening school-wide, not on a class by class basis implying the Head is the responsible person here. All due respect, Millie, please read the entire thread.

Sambucus_Nigra

milliebear00001 wrote: »

Hmm...

What, it's not my fault you can't read! :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Sparklyfairy

thegirlintheattic wrote: »

One member of SMT 'on-call', that usually means removing naughty kids from classes or picking up kids that need speaking to, so not much time for patrolling - hence the need for the entrances to be in sight of someone. We also have 10 different Year Group toilets, so keeping an eye on all of them would take up a lot of time. All the students know which toilets are open, and as it is a small building, your never more than a minute tops away from one.

Thanks for clearing that up - I saw after I posted that there were some loos open.. my high school had 2,000 students, all loos were open, all the time. We had staff members, I'm assuming, on rota, patrolling them all.

claire16c

Wow, glad I never went to a school with any of these insane rules.

At secondary we just asked to go the loo whenever we wanted and there were never any problems. A school must have a massive problem with kids bunking off if they have to lock the loos?? I barely knew anyone who did bunk off at my school - and they certainly wouldnt have picked the loos to hang out!

Primary, I remember in around yr2-3 we did sometimes ask to go to chat to each other, but my teacher used to do the 'Please wait for 5 minutes/til X has come back' to get round that - no standing in the corner!

thegirlintheattic

vax2002 wrote: »

This is covered by the The Education (School Premises) Regulations 1999
Toilets must be provided for children WHEN REQUIRED to refuse or to restrict times is a breech of the regulations.
http://www.atl.org.uk/health-and-safety/work-environment/standards-education-premises.asp

I think a lot would be surprised what goes on behind locked doors, they did not lock strangers out, they locked themselves in !

The regulations mention nothing about not refusing or restricting usuage. The regulations can be viewed here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2/contents/made
and only stipulates the number of toilets needed.

Claire: In my school bunking off is actually very rare indeed, however we have a duty of care towards our students, and so make sure that there is nowhere within school that a child, possibly one who is angry or upset, could be alone, unsupervised, for an extended period of time. Similarly if a student is sent to stand outside the class, the door is left open so they are within sight, if this is not possible we are not allowed to remove them from class until someone on call is able to come and collect them.

Sparkley: As far as I'm aware, most 'normal' teachers would only be allowed to patrol during their proper 'frees'. Most non-contact time is actually PPA and we can't be asked to patrol during that time. Depending on where you work you may get one free a week or none, and there are times when there are many teachers not teaching and times when everyone is teaching or on PPA. Therefore a rota system would be unworkable in the majority of schools. It's similar to the fact we can't be asked to do duties at lunch times unless we are paid extra/given lunch.

Nicki

Sorry was away for a bit. Sparkly I haven't avoided your question, and no I don't work with kids but have 3 of my own.

If a child asked for the toilet within 10 minutes of a break where the rule was as in your school, I would think it acceptable for the teacher to ask the child had they used the toilet at break time and if not why not. If the child said they forgot/were playing then I would see that as a deliberate disregard of the school rule, and so I would apply whatever sanction that attracts in the classroom, after I had let them use the toilet. If they said they hadn't because they hadn't needed it at that point, I would ask if they could wait for 15 minutes or so until the first activity was over to avoid disrupting the class and them missing vital instructions, then let them go. If they said they couldnt wait, they could go at once. If they said they had gone but needed to go again, I would let them go with no further queries. If they asked more than 20 minutes after a break, they go without question. This is what happened when I was a child at primary school and seemed to work fine and dandy, with no one obviously having accidents or getting distressed, and it was to be honest the exception rather than the rule for children to go during lesson time.

I do think 6/7 is a suitable age to expect a child to start planning to use the loo at break (ie last year of Ks1, year 2). My kids, one of whom has learning difficulties and didn't toilet train until she was 5/6, had got into that habit at that age, and very rarely asked to leave the class outside of these times. For a child with a genuine medical problem, then obviously free access should be allowed but I don't think you are suggesting this applies to either of yours?

Sparklyfairy

thegirlintheattic wrote: »

The regulations mention nothing about not refusing or restricting usuage. The regulations can be viewed here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2/contents/made
and only stipulates the number of toilets needed.

Um, it does:

Toilet facilities

The Education (School Premises) Regulations stipulate that there should be at least one toilet for every 10 pupils under five years and one for every 20 pupils over that age. In special schools, the minimum provision is one toilet for every 10 pupils, irrespective of age.
Staff toilets must be separate from those for pupils. Whilst the number of toilets for staff must be "adequate", the regulations do not specify a minimum provision. One therefore has to turn to the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations, which lay down the following minimum levels for all workplaces in its Code of Practice:
No. of people at workNo. of WCs1-51 WC6-252 WCs26-503 WCs51-754 WCs76-1005 WCs

It's implied the loos must be open & available...not locked.

meritaten

Nicki wrote: »

Sorry was away for a bit. Sparkly I haven't avoided your question, and no I don't work with kids but have 3 of my own.

If a child asked for the toilet within 10 minutes of a break where the rule was as in your school, I would think it acceptable for the teacher to ask the child had they used the toilet at break time and if not why not. If the child said they forgot/were playing then I would see that as a deliberate disregard of the school rule, and so I would apply whatever sanction that attracts in the classroom, after I had let them use the toilet. If they said they hadn't because they hadn't needed it at that point, I would ask if they could wait for 15 minutes or so until the first activity was over to avoid disrupting the class and them missing vital instructions, then let them go. If they said they couldnt wait, they could go at once. If they said they had gone but needed to go again, I would let them go with no further queries. If they asked more than 20 minutes after a break, they go without question. This is what happened when I was a child at primary school and seemed to work fine and dandy, with no one obviously having accidents or getting distressed, and it was to be honest the exception rather than the rule for children to go during lesson time.

I do think 6/7 is a suitable age to expect a child to start planning to use the loo at break (ie last year of Ks1, year 2). My kids, one of whom has learning difficulties and didn't toilet train until she was 5/6, had got into that habit at that age, and very rarely asked to leave the class outside of these times. For a child with a genuine medical problem, then obviously free access should be allowed but I don't think you are suggesting this applies to either of yours?

and by the time you had finished cross questioning the kid whether they needed to go - they could have gone and come back! surely its easier just to let them go?