Sack Atos Healthcare Immediately Please take a look.

rogerblack

Mupette wrote: »

The system isn't right, but yes ATOS need to go.

They need to find an independant company that marks based on individual cases, not a bog standard yes or no system, everyone is different.

With respect, this is _ENTIRELY_ wrong.
Yes, there are real quality issues with ATOS, but this kind of response misses the completely fundamental issue.

ATOS are simply implementing the work capability assessment as written by parliament.

They may be doing this imperfectly, and the DWP may be doing insufficient checking of their reports - but the 'tick box' nature is not the fault of ATOS.

There are manifest unfairnesses in this system even if ATOS was perfect, and the DWP implemented the system perfectly.

For example, the recent changes last year eliminated many of the '3 point' descriptors - and eliminated others.
This causes some people with complex disabilities real problems.
It's hard to call any of the '15 point' descriptors 'easy' to live with. (for example, severe incontinence, or epilepsy with fits once a week)

But in real terms, someone with 'just' one severe disability, even if it qualifies them for ESA might be more employable than someone with complex disabilities stretching over most aspects of their life.

This is hard.

At the moment, there is a simple distinction between 'fit for work' and 'unfit for work'.
This has to go.

In principle universal credit could be a positive - but the ongoing pressure on the budget has the potential to turn a fairer system into one mired in appeals and unfairness.

BigAunty

ATOS is deffo flawed but an independent body, with assessors that do not have a personal relationship with the claimant, and which can apply the same assessment to all in a consistent basis is what is required.

GPs are obviously experts at helping to diagnose and treat sickness but this does not mean they are best placed to determine who can or can't work. They are overworked as it is and can do without this additional gate-keeping role.

Under their watch and before the reforms, Incapacity claimants were set to rise to 3 million. In my city, up to a few years ago, one in five working age claimants received IB, now down to one in seven.

It became a handy way of parking the unemployed out of the JSA figures. GPs ended up complicit in this.

I prefer the scandinavian model where there are occupational therapists in place that help stop the employee from leaving their job in the first place and help their return, in tandem with their employer. This is what is missing in the UK - experts who can help reshape an employees role and introduce modifications to keep them in employment.

Not GPs who do not have any clue to employment practices and whose trusting role means that they are obliged to cooperate with a patients request, not challenge it.

Muttleythefrog

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

Surely someone with a medical condition that is so serious as to stop them from working should be seeing their doctor regularly anyway?

There may be nothing the medical profession can do. As soon as the latest gameplay is over with the latest psychiatrist in my case then that's the end of the line... and presumably GP will agree there's no point us meeting up to discuss the weather...lol... I ain't going to get better and I have a telephone number if I get into crisis.

Oldernotwiser

Muttleythefrog wrote: »

There may be nothing the medical profession can do. As soon as the latest gameplay is over with the latest psychiatrist in my case then that's the end of the line... and presumably GP will agree there's no point us meeting up to discuss the weather...lol... I ain't going to get better and I have a telephone number if I get into crisis.

But you do at least see a specialist from time to time, even if you don't find them helpful and possibly have a CPN as well.

For many people with chronic, life threatening illnesses, the GP is the only medical contact they have, so if they don't see him/her regularly they are totally isolated from any help, new medical developments or support.

Muttleythefrog

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

But you do at least see a specialist from time to time, even if you don't find them helpful and possibly have a CPN as well.

For many people with chronic, life threatening illnesses, the GP is the only medical contact they have, so if they don't see him/her regularly they are totally isolated from any help, new medical developments or support.

I'm only seeing a specialist because I insisted on it (that'll probably end when we agree medication has failed.. medication that I insisted be tried and she reluctantly prescribed)... effectively I refused to accept that the NHS couldn't help me. Don't have a CPN.. such services are gone locally as I understand (vanished just as I was about to get allocated a CPN..lol)... that's what I wanted.. regular access to CPN who could provide the appropriate level of NHS involvement. I only really see my GP in relation to a stomach acid issue... but since medication seems to be working for that then all I need is repeat prescriptions. I would assume there are many people out there with MH problems who have sought medical help and who have exhausted options and vanish off the NHS radar. I suppose a decent GP might insist on meeting up every few months to monitor situation.. but how common that would be I don't know.

Mupette

rogerblack wrote: »

With respect, this is _ENTIRELY_ wrong.
Yes, there are real quality issues with ATOS, but this kind of response misses the completely fundamental issue.

ATOS are simply implementing the work capability assessment as written by parliament.

They may be doing this imperfectly, and the DWP may be doing insufficient checking of their reports - but the 'tick box' nature is not the fault of ATOS.

There are manifest unfairnesses in this system even if ATOS was perfect, and the DWP implemented the system perfectly.

For example, the recent changes last year eliminated many of the '3 point' descriptors - and eliminated others.
This causes some people with complex disabilities real problems.
It's hard to call any of the '15 point' descriptors 'easy' to live with. (for example, severe incontinence, or epilepsy with fits once a week)

But in real terms, someone with 'just' one severe disability, even if it qualifies them for ESA might be more employable than someone with complex disabilities stretching over most aspects of their life.

This is hard.

At the moment, there is a simple distinction between 'fit for work' and 'unfit for work'.
This has to go.

In principle universal credit could be a positive - but the ongoing pressure on the budget has the potential to turn a fairer system into one mired in appeals and unfairness.

This is why i also wrote that training for staff is needed...

There needs to be a big shake up before pip comes in, and that's staff training as a priority. But training to spot the blagger too. And training on medical conditions and how they affect a persons day to day life.

If its a decision marker who says yay or nay, how do we know they are qualified as a medical expert to have knowledge, both DWP and ATOS need looking at.

Glen_Clark

BigAunty wrote: »

Under their watch and before the reforms, Incapacity claimants were set to rise to 3 million. In my city, up to a few years ago, one in five working age claimants received IB, now down to one in seven.

The only 'evidence' of widespread fraud which the Government has presented, is the increase in people claiming incapacity benefits. This simply ignores 2 important points;
1) The gap between rich and poor has been rising for the last 30 years. The evidence of a link between poverty and ill health is overwhelming, but the Government simply ignores it.
2) The number of people out of work has hit a 17 year high. Ther more fit people there are applying for every job, the less chance the disabled person has. This may not always be so in the public sector, but it certainly is in the private sector, because, unlike the public sector, the private sector has to be efficient enough to make a profit.

rogerblack

Glen_Clark wrote: »

The only 'evidence' of widespread fraud which the Government has presented, is the increase in people claiming incapacity benefits. This simply ignores 2 important points;

3) Women in the workplace.
4) Immigrants.
5) The up-skilling of jobs.

None of these is responsible alone for it being more difficult for some to find work.

But with more and more jobs requiring skills, and more and more competent women entering the workplace, it gets harder and harder for the 'unemployable' to find a job.

In the past, there used to be a lot more really unskilled tasks.
There were jobs where you simply had to get to work on time, and then push a button when a light went on.

If you increase the pool of employable people by encouraging/forcing women into work, while at the same time eliminating many of the unskilled jobs - there are going to be a large number of people that are truly unemployable.

Both due to being incapable of the jobs available to them and not having the skills to do them.

What to do with these people is not simple.
Simply putting them back into the job market by declaring them fit is just going to boost the number of people on JSA.

krisskross

Glen_Clark wrote: »

The only 'evidence' of widespread fraud which the Government has presented, is the increase in people claiming incapacity benefits. This simply ignores 2 important points;
1) The gap between rich and poor has been rising for the last 30 years. The evidence of a link between poverty and ill health is overwhelming, but the Government simply ignores it.

So what sort of ill health is the so called poverty causing?

Do we have children and adults dying in their thousands from malnutrition and lack of health care? Do we have people freezing to death because they have no homes?

What would you actually describe as poverty? And please explain what illnesses this perceived poverty causes.

I believe the payment of welfare benefits especially those for chidren cause ill health. I only have to look round my local shopping centre to see dozens of overweight adults and children. They are being given the cash to buy the junk food that is digging their graves.

rotoguys

These people that say that there is poverty in this country need specs!!

Poverty - I haven't seen one case in the past 50 years. If people think it is bad now - I would suggest that they read up on the consequences of the crash in the 1920's!!