New power of attorney guide

ColinB

On the topic of recording and sharing passwords, this is an area where the law has not kept up with technology or the needs of society. There are technical solutions to this, for example I use LastPass to manage all my passwords and that has a system whereby you can nominate someone to have access to your passwords if you are unable to do so. But it might not be legal for that person to use them, see this article:
https://www.bereavementadvice.org/topics/registering-a-death-and-informing-others/digital-legacy/
“However the Law Society warns that an executor using a password or PIN to access an account after a death may be guilty of a criminal offence under the Computer Misuse Act which was passed in 1990. This is the same as an executor not being able to access a bank account of the deceased even if they have knowledge of the password. In some cases it is against the Terms and Conditions of an account to give a password to someone else.”
i guess most people just ignore that and hope for the best, but it feels slightly uncomfortable putting one’s executors in that position.

ropewalk

To make it clear - an attorney can access bank accounts, use passwords etc. while the person is alive.  Once they have died an attorney has no power whatsoever.   An executor cannot and should not access bank accounts.  They are two separate legal identities and should not be confused, even when it is the same person in both cases.

Primrose

ColinB.   You do raise a legitimate point and i agree the law and financial institutions have not kept up with the digital revolution.  This is something the government and relevant institutions need to address because the baby boomer generation are now becoming older and needing care or dying and their legal representatives need the assurance that they are acting within the law.   It,s complicated  enough h having to act as an attorney or executor without having to worry in addition whether you are in fact acting illegally by using a password you have been given when you think you have legitimately  given that individual the legal powers to act on your behalf. 

As a case in point;  you give your attorney the power to access your bank account  to help you manage your complicated finances.  If they can,t access your account because the bank won,t cover you  for fraud if you give that individual  your online PIN number or password, how can they help you?  The document is worthless.  Do banks offer alternative PIN numbers to attorneys?

I don,t know if your' re a lawyer or in the banking industry but WHO is going to take responsibility to getting this situation changed and updated? We need some nationwide legal standards and regulations  here! 

ropewalk

If you have Power of Attorney you have to register it with the bank before you can use it.  They will want to see the original document, and it is best to have more than one copy as some institutions are slow to return it. 

Having been POA for three different relatives, in three very different circumstances, I can assure you that different banks and institutions deal with it differently, and some can be totally incompetent, but eventually you can get it up and running how you (and the person involved) want.  The initial set up can be stressful, but once set up it works. 

ColinB

@ropewalk: You're right, I may have confused the issue by talking about executors in the PoA thread. But I think the principle is the same in both cases, ie that there are potential problems in using another person’s login credentials. My experience of operating a PoA was that the bank insisted on me having my own credentials separate to the account holder; presumably that’s because they need to know the identity of the person accessing the account. I suspect there is a subtle legal difference between being entitled to manage someone’s affairs via a PoA, and actually impersonating them by using their credentials. That’s akin to forging their signature which is not legal even if you have a PoA. 

@Primrose. Re your 2nd para, as stated by @ropewalk, once the PoA is registered with the bank (or indeed any other institution) then you can manage the donor’s affairs. Once you get over the hurdle of meeting all the bank’s requirements to verify your entitlement and identity, it works well. But the bank will (in my experience) require you to do that using your own identity rather than simply impersonating the donor by using their credentials.

Primrose

@ColinB.   Although it,s an additional irritant,   I can see the merit of a Pof A having to use a different password or PIN number.  It's essential that banks can audit who is accessing an account at any time.  While almost all attorneys act honestly, there are sadly some who abuse their powers and in the case of any subsequent complaint to the office of Public  guardian  about potential  abuse of powers, banks need to have specific evidence and that can only be obtained if they have evidence of who was moving/accessing money at a particular time and there is a detailed audit trail.

peteduk

With special thanks to Primrose, ColinB and ropewalk..... your recent posts have been very helpful and clarified things for me. I was starting to fall into the trap of confusing acting as an Attorney and Executor. From your comments, strictly speaking my wife has no need of passwords etc.

I've followed Primrose's advice and have advised the GP surgery about the Health and Welfare LPAs and await their reply.
Next step will be to explain the other accounts and financial affairs to my wife.
I hope people don't mind but I would like to repeat a question I asked on a different forum and see how the people here feel as I haven't followed up on it yet:
At the moment we have the LPAs as sent to us by the Office of the Public Guardian, no certified copies. Based on the feedback on the other thread I feel I should make 3 copies of each Health and Welfare LPA  (for the Doctor / Dentist / Spare) and maybe 20 copies of the Property and Financial Affairs LPAs for the various utilities, accounts etc. We should then self certify by signing each page and store in a safe place.
Do you agree? (I have never heard of anyone else doing this, and am sure my parents haven't. Not even sure they have LPAs)
Thank you,

Rosie1980

Definitely make copies, if the original gets lost there is no way of getting a copy once the donor has lost capacity. I shouldn't think you need that many copies though as anyone who wanted an original would return it straight away. I've only required one once and I did that in person at a bank, they made a copy but didn't keep the original. I have got the original and one self certified copy.

ropewalk

Rosie, you were lucky!  I have sent them off to various places and not all of them return them, even if you request this.  I had to chase up several companies.  But 3 or 4 should be plenty, unless there are many accounts to deal with.

Primrose

And if you have to send them off,  keep a note of how many pages the document contains and that you get the same number of pages back.   Sound elementary but I had one experience of a P of A being unstapled by a financial institution to have it photocopied and the last page being left in a photocopier, which proved a nightmare to retrieve subsequently.    If you're standing over somebody while this is being done you can check it out but you don't have this option if you have to send the document away and somebody is careless.