Atheist and the nativity

erichamster

USM wrote: »

In my view, all those people are cancelled out a million times over by religion's ability to incite hate and violence based on a fantasy which has been pushed too far.

I agree with this, and would add that no amount of comfort or joy attained or derived from religion in any way supports its accuracy as truth.

Besides, upsetting as the truth may be to some, I find the infantilism associated with religion tiresome, the universe does not owe you comfort.

Soubrette

erichamster wrote: »

I agree with this, and would add that no amount of comfort or joy attained or derived from religion in any way supports its accuracy as truth.

Besides, upsetting as the truth may be to some, I find the infantilism associated with religion tiresome, the universe does not owe you comfort.

Indeed, neither does the amount of discomfort or despair attained or derived against religion in any way support its inaccuracy or lack of truth either.

I personally do not believe it. I do not believe there is any scientific evidence or indeed even any need for religion however I cannot hand on heart say there is no evidence for it either.

rdr

Person_one wrote: »

Schools and teachers do have to be very careful about the way they teach religion though.

There's a huge difference between:

"Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God, and that he could make miracles happen."

and

"Jesus was the son of God. Ee came to save us from our sins, now lets sing a hymn for Him"

While I am happy for my children to learn about religions - they are so deep seated in so many cultures that you can not understand most cultures without some understanding of their religious history - I think that an important thing missing is consideration of the possibility/probability that there is no god.

erichamster

Soubrette wrote: »

I think those peope will still exist if there were no religion - they would just find something else about which to incite hate and violence.

It would be nice to believe that with no religion the whole world become or have been a much better place but it seems unlikely to me.

This reminds me of one of my favourite quotes:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but for good people top do bad things, it takes religion." Steven Weinberg

As an example, the individuals who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks did it not because they were bad or mentally ill people, but because they really and truly believed, beyond all scrap of doubt that what they were doing was absolutely good and morally right and that they would be rewarded richly for their deeds, one wonders how they didn't spare a thought if not for their innocent victims (how dehumanising words such as unbeliever, heathen, kafir can be) but for their poor families left behind to be vilified.

This does not surprise me as I find that theism is often accompanied by self centred attitude "God loves me" "He helps me".
What about all the times and places in which he doesn't act, all the innocent children he allows to be killed horribly screaming in terror by natural disasters? Oh but thats ok because "God is good because I prayed and he cured my eczema/depression/hemorroids"!

sooty&sweep

Hi

I don't have any strong views on religion so I am I suppose an athiest.

However alot of people in this country are practising christians and it is the main religion of this country and I think you have to respect that. I don't mean that we should become practising christians but I do think it is appropriate that our children should know and understand alittle bit about the christian festivals we all celebrate such as christmas and easter so that they understand what it is they are about even if you choose not to believe in the religious aspect of the festival.

What is better way for a child to learn about the nativity than by taking on a role and dressing up and then performing that nativity play to their friends and family ?

Jen

erichamster

Soubrette wrote: »

Indeed, neither does the amount of discomfort or despair attained or derived against religion in any way support its inaccuracy or lack of truth either.

I personally do not believe it. I do not believe there is any scientific evidence or indeed even any need for religion however I cannot hand on heart say there is no evidence for it either.

What evidence do you have?

Soubrette

erichamster wrote: »

This reminds me of one of my favourite quotes:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but for good people top do bad things, it takes religion." Steven Weinberg

As an example, the individuals who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks did it not because they were bad or mentally ill people, but because they really and truly believed, beyond all scrap of doubt that what they were doing was absolutely good and morally right and that they would be rewarded richly for their deeds, one wonders how they didn't spare a thought if not for their innocent victims (how dehumanising words such as unbeliever, heathen, kafir can be) but for their poor families left behind to be vilified.

This does not surprise me as I find that theism is often accompanied by self centred attitude "God loves me" "He helps me".
What about all the times and places in which he doesn't act, all the innocent children he allows to be killed horribly screaming in terror by natural disasters? Oh but thats ok because "God is good because I prayed and he cured my eczema/depression/hemorroids"!

If you believe then you would also believe in that horrible phrase - god works in mysterious ways.

People in general are inherently self centred - don't you feel the centre of your world? Perhaps it's just me We are spectacularly poor at assessing our own worth compared to everyone else - bad things that happen to us are because of bad luck, good things are because of our skill. We are all hard workers, above average intelligence with a good sense of humour

One of the main reasons that I am unconvinced by religion is that if there is this benevolent god then I would think that he would make a special effort with the people who actually worshipped, yet they same to suffer the same illnesses, the same crime rates etc as the rest of us (as well as those infidels who dare believe in the wrong god). That same thought though also makes me feel that, easy as it would be to blame religion for all the moral ills of the world, the religious don't seem to murder any the less than the unreligious when taken as a group so religion per se cannot be the evil force that some seem to feel it is.

liney

Person_one wrote: »

That's interesting, because most people accept that parents have the right to raise their children in a particular religion, how is that any different?

I don't believe parents have the right to force their religious beliefs on their children full stop. If it's part of familiy life, then fine, but if and when a child decides they are a non believer, or converts to another religion when they are old enough to understand that they can, then I think it's personal choice regardless of age.

Soubrette

erichamster wrote: »

What evidence do you have?

I have none otherwise I'd be an agnostic

However, there is no doubt in my mind that sincere and honest friends of mine have felt what they perceive to be the presence of god.

Do I believe that it is the presence of god? I do not. However I cannot say that I know it is NOT the presence of god either, personally I think it is a psychological need that they are self fulfilling on an unconscious level but I admit that is conjecture.

There is also some evidence that spiritual people lead slightly happier and longer lives than non spiritual people. I do not find this compelling because I would expect that a particular religion would live happier, longer lives if there were a god. Imo even atheists can be spiritual.

It is not evidence that I find compelling but I'm reluctant to say that it is no evidence at all - I have yet to hear anyone say that they have felt the presence of father christmas or that those that believe in fairies live longer or happier lives.

lostinrates

erichamster wrote: »

This reminds me of one of my favourite quotes:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but for good people top do bad things, it takes religion." Steven Weinberg

I just plain disagree ith this. I, non religious, have done things I am ashamed of, and I defy most people religious or aethiest, to say they have never done a bad thing...but I believe most people are, or want to be good, and that most of us are something inbetween goo and bad.

Blaming religion is, IMO, a cop out for lack of personal and social responsibility and human fallibility