Atheist and the nativity

erichamster

Soubrette wrote: »

If you believe then you would also believe in that horrible phrase - god works in mysterious ways.

People in general are inherently self centred - don't you feel the centre of your world? Perhaps it's just me We are spectacularly poor at assessing our own worth compared to everyone else - bad things that happen to us are because of bad luck, good things are because of our skill. We are all hard workers, above average intelligence with a good sense of humour

One of the main reasons that I am unconvinced by religion is that if there is this benevolent god then I would think that he would make a special effort with the people who actually worshipped, yet they same to suffer the same illnesses, the same crime rates etc as the rest of us (as well as those infidels who dare believe in the wrong god). That same thought though also makes me feel that, easy as it would be to blame religion for all the moral ills of the world, the religious don't seem to murder any the less than the unreligious when taken as a group so religion per se cannot be the evil force that some seem to feel it is.

I presume you mean "any more" in place of "any the less" becasue that doesn't make sense with what comes after.

The unreligious don't kill because of the fact of their lack of religion, they may murder because of a lack of morality (in the case of the sociopath) but that is another thing entirely. Only religious people would ever murder in the name of a religion, directly as a result of their religious training.

Luckily most Jews and Christians have allowed their innate, evolved morals to override the more disgusting and intolerant teachings of theire religious texts (you shall not suffer a witch to live, stoning for homosexuals etc) having had the benefit of improved education.

Unfortunately, Islam, being the youngest of the big three and afflicted with the notion that the Quran is literally the dictated word of god and can never be disregarded, has now become the most dangerous and viloent among its fundamentalists (although there is a stong case to be made for the insidious and perhaps more far reaching nature of the Christian far right in America).

Soubrette

erichamster wrote: »

I presume you mean "any more" in place of "any the less" becasue that doesn't make sense with what comes after.

The unreligious don't kill because of the fact of their lack of religion, they may murder because of a lack of morality (in the case of the sociopath) but that is another thing entirely. Only religious people would ever murder in the name of a religion, directly as a result of their religious training.

Luckily most Jews and Christians have allowed their innate, evolved morals to override the more disgusting and intolerant teachings of theire religious texts (you shall not suffer a witch to live, stoning for homosexuals etc) having had the benefit of improved education.

Unfortunately, Islam, being the youngest of the big three and afflicted with the notion that the Quran is literally the dictated word of god and can never be disregarded, has now become the most dangerous and viloent among its fundamentalists (although there is a stong case to be made for the insidious and perhaps more far reaching nature of the Christian far right in America).

I believe that these people would be murderers anyway.

newcook

Soubrette wrote: »

It is not evidence that I find compelling but I'm reluctant to say that it is no evidence at all - I have yet to hear anyone say that they have felt the presence of father christmas or that those that believe in fairies live longer or happier lives.

its because as children we get told that they dont exist so the magic gets lost


get kids to go outside when its dark on xmas eve and play 'spot santa' - it only takes one to say 'there he is! look, look!!!!' and the rest will see him too.

Im 31 and I still believe and I blame the fairies if something goes missing when I know I put it in a certain place Im such a big kid!

Soubrette

newcook wrote: »

its because as children we get told that they dont exist so the magic gets lost


get kids to go outside when its dark on xmas eve and play 'spot santa' - it only takes one to say 'there he is! look, look!!!!' and the rest will see him too.

Im 31 and I still believe and I blame the fairies if something goes missing when I know I put it in a certain place Im such a big kid!

When I helped out at pre-school, I saw a grown man reduce all the children to tears by pretending that he'd seen Father Christmas and when they rushed out, told them they had just missed him.

For me there is no magic - it's a game we grown ups like to play with our children without their knowledge.

erichamster said it earlier and I couldn't agree more - I don't have to make up magic because I'm too busy looking at the majesty of reality (not just majestic but counterintuitive too sometimes - nothing more fun that a brainbend ). One of my favourite illusions is a chess board where two squares are obviously different colours - except they're not - if you fold the paper then they are the same colour, if you unfold the paper back, even though you know they are the same colours - they still look different. The way our brain works overrides what we actually know. How cool is that?

All that said, if you like the 'magic' and you don't expect me to accomodate it with special rules - then I'm glad you enjoy it.

erichamster

Soubrette wrote: »

I have none otherwise I'd be an agnostic

However, there is no doubt in my mind that sincere and honest friends of mine have felt what they perceive to be the presence of god.

Do I believe that it is the presence of god? I do not. However I cannot say that I know it is NOT the presence of god either, personally I think it is a psychological need that they are self fulfilling on an unconscious level but I admit that is conjecture.

There is also some evidence that spiritual people lead slightly happier and longer lives than non spiritual people. I do not find this compelling because I would expect that a particular religion would live happier, longer lives if there were a god. Imo even atheists can be spiritual.

It is not evidence that I find compelling but I'm reluctant to say that it is no evidence at all - I have yet to hear anyone say that they have felt the presence of father christmas or that those that believe in fairies live longer or happier lives.

Firstly I must ask what is a spiritual person? I never know what people mean by this and am often puzzled by it. I must say I have never read any studies about 'spiritual' people living longer than 'non-spritual' do you have any further info about this? I would question a study that made the assertion of one group being happier than any other, how would they measure happiness?

What do your friends mean when they say they have felt god's presence? I have never spoken to anyone who has had a 'religious experience'.

Furthermore, I'm sure people have said they have felt the presence of father christmas or fairies but were then promptly carted off to the insane asylum! It is simply the amount of people who follow religion that makes its claims appear more plausible to some and what stops those who have 'religious experiences' questioning their origins. Again, these number do not point to any truth in it, merely to its effectiveness as a delusion implanted in childhood or at another vulnerable point.

newcook

Soubrette wrote: »

All that said, if you like the 'magic' and you don't expect me to accomodate it with special rules - then I'm glad you enjoy it.

rules?! what rules do you mean?

erichamster

Soubrette wrote: »

I believe that these people would be murderers anyway.

Really? So do you sunscribe to the view that all murderers are born bad then? How depressing.
Who do you think the hijackers of 9/11 or the suicide bombers of 7/7 would have killed if they hadn't been killing infidels then? What would they have crashed the planes into/bombed instead?

Soubrette

erichamster wrote: »

Firstly I must ask what is a spiritual person? I never know what people mean by this and am often puzzled by it. I must say I have never read any studies about 'spiritual' people living longer than 'non-spritual' do you have any further info about this? I would question a study that made the assertion of one group being happier than any other, how would they measure happiness?

This is one of the questions I asked myself, what does spiritual mean? As I said, if there was a genuine god I would expect his followers to benefit from their input of worship. To measure happiness, you would have to ask people. I noted the study but did not find it convincing.

What do your friends mean when they say they have felt god's presence? I have never spoken to anyone who has had a 'religious experience'.

I cannot speak for them but only that they feel as if they have a direct connection to god - one of them even had a speaking in tongues experience where he felt god was working through him. Again there is little point quizzing me on it because a) I did not exerience it and b) I believe that he was misinterpreting the experience he had.

Furthermore, I'm sure people have said they have felt the presence of father christmas or fairies but were then promptly carted off to the insane asylum! It is simply the amount of people who follow religion that makes its claims appear more plausible to some and what stops those who have 'religious experiences' questioning their origins. Again, these number do not point to any truth in it, merely to its effectiveness as a delusion implanted in childhood or at another vulnerable point.

More than one person has had religious experiences - in my view religion was a useful survival tool in the past and of evolutionary benefit - I believe that there was an experiment devised where stimulating a portion of the brain gave a feeling of being in the presence of an all powerful presence but it did not work on Dawkins. If you are religious you may equally argue that god has made a part of the brain receptive to his message. My question was why did this not work with Dawkins? Would a god really only give the ability to believe to some people - that doesn't sound benign or all powerful.

Many adults also are adamant in their belief of FC - I see none of them carted off anywhere.

I cannot argue that these things point to the truth of religion - because I do not find them convincing myself. However it mildly irritates me when atheists say there is no proof of god when what they actually mean is that there is no scientific proof of god.

Soubrette

newcook wrote: »

rules?! what rules do you mean?

Things like I am not allowed to wear jewellery because its unsafe but a religious person can wear them.

For a long time Sunday opening hours was banned because Sunday was a religious day.

That kind of thing - keep your religion/beliefs personal and I have no problem, expect special treatments because of them then I don't agree.

Not saying that you would expect those treatments btw

Person_one

Soubrette wrote: »

I cannot speak for them but only that they feel as if they have a direct connection to god - one of them even had a speaking in tongues experience where he felt god was working through him. Again there is little point quizzing me on it because a) I did not exerience it and b) I believe that he was misinterpreting the experience he had.

"George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."