Atheist and the nativity

Soubrette

USM wrote: »

Organised religion on the other hand is inherently unhealthy and scary.

Many people gain a lot of comfort and happiness from organised religion. I don't think it's inherently unhealthy or scary - just some people make it so.

There are some pretty unhealthy scary atheists out there which leads me to conclude that religion per se is not unhealthy or scary and in fact its survival as a meme may be because at some point it was an evolutionary benefit, however some people religious or not are inherently unhealthy and scary and those people are attracted to power.

Soubrette

erichamster wrote: »

I think Professor Dawkins would most certainly identify himself as an atheist, what he has said (and where I think the misunderstanding has come from) is that he cannot absolutely disprove the existence of a god, much in the same way that none of us can absolutely disprove the existence of fairies or unicorns or an orbiting teapot.

We (most of us) merely operate from the practicaL standpoint that things which have absolutely no real, demonstarable, scientific positive evidence in their favour do not exist for all intents and purposes.

You should see the Unicorn Challenge at Camp Quest, a summer camp where children are invited every year to disprove the existence of two silent, invisible, intangible unicorn! The prize (a 100 dollar bill) has never been won.

I love this idea - at one point in her life my daughter was puzzled by the tooth fairy, there was evidence for it - money left under pillows and the confirmation that this happened to more than one child, how could she prove or disprove the existence of the tooth fairy. It led to a very interesting week of discussion and also brought in things like occams razor.

Mallotum_X

Lots of people celebrate Xmas in all kinds of ways, for a huge percentage of people in this country it has nothing to do with religion, but a family time.

But really is it not a little hypocritical doing the Xmas thing but then being against any teaching at school of what Xmas actually is, following a Christian tradition but not wanting the Christian story of xmas seems a little unusual.

erichamster

Soubrette wrote: »

I love this idea - at one point in her life my daughter was puzzled by the tooth fairy, there was evidence for it - money left under pillows and the confirmation that this happened to more than one child, how could she prove or disprove the existence of the tooth fairy. It led to a very interesting week of discussion and also brought in things like occams razor.

Ah but you're not playing fair, are you one of the parents from this post on RichardDawkins.net?:

http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/644151-when-the-magic-of-reality-collides-with-the-magic-of-childhood

I've often wondered what I would do about the father christmas/tooth fairy issue if I have children, I'm still not sure but as I don't remember ever believing in him myself, think I would lean towards explaining the myths and stories (indeed as many as I could find relating to this time of year, Yule etc) but not saying they're true or supporting any kind of belief. I personally think the reality of the universe is far more wondrous, interesting and exciting than anything man has made up.

margaretclare

I'm not going to get into this argument again, except for one small point: I'm not sure what is meant by a 'non-faith school'. Does that mean, apart from those who state they are about a particular religion/branch of a religion, inclusive of all the rest?

I know it's a long time since I was at school, but I went to ordinary schools run by the local authority. In a village school we did a lot of Bible study, mainly the Old Testament, then at grammar school there was an act of worship daily. The school motto was, in Latin, a quotation from one of the Psalms: 'What shall I render unto the Lord?' At that school I met Catholics for the first time and they used to stay outside morning assembly. I also met my first Jews and I was 14 then! I'd read about Jews in Bible study but I didn't know there were any still around.

DH says he was allowed to stay outside school assembly because he was Jewish, but he chose not to. He chose to involve himself in morning Christian worship with his schoolfellows.

When my daughters were young we lived in a Kent village and the little school was opposite the church. The vicar used to be in and out of the school and he'd do RE with them, and they walked across the road for carol service in church. Same with my grandkids in the Pennines.

My point is, all these were ordinary state schools under the local authority. The Christmas story was always told, re-enacted in nativity plays and in carol services.

I agree with Person_one above. Quite apart from anything else, there are some wonderful stories. We learned chunks by heart, and the King James Bible language resonates through much of English literature even as far as modern times. I can still remember a lot of it. Ruth who wouldn't go back home and leave her mother-in-law: 'Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee, for whither thou goest I will go, thy people shall be my people, and thy God, my God'...

If you're ever in a foreign land where people practise a different religion, you're ill in hospital with nothing to read, or like Terry Waite was in captivity, all that you learned by heart in school whether of literature or religion, becomes a hugely-important resource and a means of keeping you sane. It's all part of our heritage and culture.

Soubrette

erichamster wrote: »

Ah but you're not playing fair, are you one of the parents from this post on RichardDawkins.net?:

http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/644151-when-the-magic-of-reality-collides-with-the-magic-of-childhood

I've often wondered what I would do about the father christmas/tooth fairy issue if I have children, I'm still not sure but as I remember ever believing in him myself, think I would lean towards explaining the myths and stories (indeed as many as I could find relating to this time of year, Yule etc) but not saying they're true or supporting any kind of belief. I personally think the reality of the universe is far more wondrous, interesting and exciting than anything man has made up.

I am an atheist but not a Dawkins fan so no, never been on that website.

My daughter led the discussions not me (I didn't do either the toothfairy or father christmas as fact - I'm uncomfortable lying to those closest to me, even with the best of intentions ). This was purely based on her own observations (although I did put forward a critique of her ideas pros and cons on the sellotape trap for example)

We've also been outside with a magnifying glass to look at snowflakes Reality (or at least our perceptions of it) is wonderous. Our direct ancestor was around when life began - somehow a chain of beings managed to continue to create life until each of us was born and as I have children, I have added to that chain - what is not amazing about that? Leaving aside the we are made of star dust, the ultimate recycling

SandC

Soubrette wrote: »

Surely it's even more important then to teach them about the Norse gods of Woden, Thor and Frig? After all our days of the week are based on these gods?

Equally so I would say. The more general knowledge the better!

USM

Soubrette wrote: »

Many people gain a lot of comfort and happiness from organised religion. I don't think it's inherently unhealthy or scary - just some people make it so.

There are some pretty unhealthy scary atheists out there which leads me to conclude that religion per se is not unhealthy or scary and in fact its survival as a meme may be because at some point it was an evolutionary benefit, however some people religious or not are inherently unhealthy and scary and those people are attracted to power.

In my view, all those people are cancelled out a million times over by religion's ability to incite hate and violence based on a fantasy which has been pushed too far.

erichamster

Mallotum_X wrote: »

Lots of people celebrate Xmas in all kinds of ways, for a huge percentage of people in this country it has nothing to do with religion, but a family time.

But really is it not a little hypocritical doing the Xmas thing but then being against any teaching at school of what Xmas actually is, following a Christian tradition but not wanting the Christian story of xmas seems a little unusual.

I don't believe it is necessarily hypocritical, although it depends what you mean by "doing the Xmas thing".

We have a 'christmas' tree (in name only, this pagan tradition predates christianity, when people brought in an evergreen tree as a fertility symbol, although ours is plastic ).

We will have a big dinner on the 25th Dec (incidentally many other winter myths include a sun god figure supposedly born on this day. often of a virgin too (for example; Attis, Horus, Dionysus, Krishna, Mithra, we don't believe in those either).

We will exchange gifts (this can arguably be based on a Babylonian figure named Nimrod who according to myth visited a tree on 25th dec, the anniversary of his birth and left gifts there).

Fundamentally so many of these myths (christmas among them) coincide because in ancient times, December 25th was the day each year when the day started to become noticeably longer following the darkness and fear associated with the winter solstice or shortest day. Thus it was fitting for the early pagans to designate December 25th as the date of the birth or the "rebirth" of the sun.

None of these myths is any more or less persuasive, emotive or interesting than the judaeo-christian one and also no more false.

Soubrette

USM wrote: »

In my view, all those people are cancelled out a million times over by religion's ability to incite hate and violence based on a fantasy which has been pushed too far.

I think those peope will still exist if there were no religion - they would just find something else about which to incite hate and violence.

It would be nice to believe that with no religion the whole world become or have been a much better place but it seems unlikely to me.