Atheist and the nativity

erichamster

fawd1 wrote: »

yep. You ever been to a decent church service? you'd see all of these things in the first half hour. OOOh, and I would also argue that effects attributed to love don't confirm it's existence. Ever heard of people being healed by faith?

Nope because that's impossible and has never happened or been proven. But I have heard of religious parents who allow their children to suffer and die by denying them medical treatment.

What an insult to genuinely hard working and conscientious medical practitioners who actually do heal people.

fawd1

GracieP wrote: »

BIB: Honestly, what sort of utter twaddle is this? Of course you can prove love. Not only is it demonstrable in everyday life but it's neurologically proven to be a series of chemical and hormonal reactions in the brain, with different reactions for different types of love like parent-child love and romantic/sexual love.As for proof against religion, to quote the recently late Hitchens; "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

Faith is also demonstrable in every day life, you're just not looking for it.Look at the people that spend their days handing out food to the poor, building homes etc. They aren't all doing it for the money. And when someone can disprove or prove faith clinically then I'd like to know.

GracieP

fawd1 wrote: »

and I would also argue that effects attributed to love don't confirm it's existence.

That's just nonsense. Here is the thing about belief. In life some things are subjective, others are objective. If you have an opinion/belief based on your feelings/point of view on a subjective matter that's fair enough and you can't be wrong.

If you have an opinion/belief based on your feelings/point of view on an objective matter you are an arrogant idiot. It's like having the opinion that my dogs are actually cats because you prefer cats. Objective matters just are what they are, what they are. You don't get to have an opinion one whether they are or not.

Love has been proven, just because that fact doesn't fit in with your strawman argument you don't get to dismiss it.

dirtysexymonkey

fawd1 wrote: »

what misery does Christianity, in fact any religion bring to you? seriously? does anyone here agree with religious crusdaes? I think we all agree live and let live. If a nativity scene impacts badly on your life, then maybe you should rethink your life before religion.

discrimination. the constant battle against equality by christianity for one. or do you consider that fine and not a problem?

you say you agree to live and let live, but if that were the case the pope wouldnt be calling people like me as the biggest threat to mankind in the world today.

erichamster

fawd1 wrote: »

not at all, it's because of free will. Great if you know what to do with it, but not great if you don't. If you don't believe in a God, then you can't keep blaming him, you'd just have to accept that some people are capable of horrific things, with or without god

As a previous poster was asked on this point, what about natural disasters?

GracieP

fawd1 wrote: »

Faith is also demonstrable in every day life, you're just not looking for it.Look at the people that spend their days handing out food to the poor, building homes etc. They aren't all doing it for the money. And when someone can disprove or prove faith clinically then I'd like to know.

Is English your first language? Because you don't seem to understand what a lot of words and terms mean. Of course people having faith is demonstrable, but in a lot of cases what they have faith in, is not.

fawd1

erichamster wrote: »

Nope because that's impossible and has never happened or been proven. But I have heard of religious parents who allow their children to suffer and die by denying them medical treatment.

What an insult to genuinely hard working and conscientious medical practitioners who actually do heal people.

For the last time I will say, I am an agnostic, I believe in no religion. BUT, how can you honestly say you've never heard of anyone surviving something they shouldn't. Inevitably, the people around them will say they've prayed (to whomever). You reckon that's just luck, or are you just waiting for your turn to ask for help?

peachyprice

fawd1 wrote: »

no, but removing the belief when it's needed makes it cruel, whatever you beliefs

No, giving false hope is cruel.

daska

erichamster wrote: »

Ok in the line you quoted first I meant you are welcome to believe in whatever you choose in your own head unless it affects other people. This also does not preclude my right to criticise your beliefs, just as I might criticise your political views.

I still don't think you actually can choose to believe in something that you don't, this was mainly borne out by my feelings that I don't think I could just decide tomorrow to believe in god because it would go against many other things that I hold in much higher regard based on evidence, which I wouldn't be able to forget unless I suffered some great brain injury.

However, I'd be interested to hear other people's views on this point about whether we can chose our beliefs.

This is probably why I consider myself agnostic rather than atheistic, I have tried but I genuinely can't understand how people can truly believe in something that cannot be proved. Be open to the possiblity, yes! But believe :think:

This is bearing in mind that I come from a family with a history of being very religious (including cloistered nuns/monks) and was brought up in a cult environment. In theory I should be prone to believing without question but it dumbfounds me. The best explanation I can come up with is that it is comforting to believe that you aren't totally responsible for every choice you make.

I feel very strongly that if you choose to subscribe to a religion then you should make sure you know and understand the texts and the teachings of the leaders so you understand not only the 'good works' but exactly what heinous crimes those texts/leaders allow/encourage etc. For example, I personally could not, under any circumstances, subscribe to a religion where people were told that using barrier contraception was more evil than spreading Aids.

There's a good debate between Christopher Hitchens and Tony Blah on "Is Religion A Force For Good In The World?" HERE

Robinred

Oi! Father Christmas is real isn't he?!