MSE News: Orange to raise monthly mobile costs

drbesty

There is no specific timescale as to when they should reply to you

Paul_Varjak

CSales wrote: »

anyone know if there's a specific timescale they should be responding or replying to me by? Should my next point of contact be Ofcom if I've not had a response after say, 4 weeks?

Follow Orange's complaints procedure for EIGHT weeks and then make a complaint to the ALTERNATIVE DISPUTE RESOLUTION BODY which, in the case of Orange is CISAS.

Maddy2k11

I spoke to orange today and when I mentioned the CSO not existing anymore argument the guy seemed very keen to switch me tariff as he did not have an answer. The outcome was, I could complain directly to there complaints department with this finding and be cancelled that way as they can't do it over the phone or change tariff. I've dropped from the panther 40 to the panther 36 (i only used 250 minutes on average) ive doubled my internet and halfed my minutes and my £5 phones 4u discount still applies. so I've gone from paying what would of been 36.75 to paying 31 for my remaining 11 months.

Not too shabby, but still a bit annoying.

unique.mo

No one should ever use oil prices to compare the increase by Orange. Those who do not know will use this arguement. However the fact is that oil prices are traded on commodities where the prices go up and down without any control and is very volatile. Orange is not trading on such a platform. Each to their own not everyone wants to sign the petition eventhough its the easiest.

thefutureisntorange

Following the identification of Orange referencing an outdated statistics department...

Their wikipedia entry has been updated with details:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(UK)#Controversy

Orange will not communicate with people based on this line of questioning. I had the following response (from: executive.office@orange.co.uk), simply stating:

Further to your recent email.

We do not consider that this dispute falls within the remit of CISAS and will not be issuing a deadlock letter. As we have fully explained our position we will not be communicating further with you regarding this issue.

I guess all we can do is make this public. Sending individual letters/emails/phone calls seems to be failing.

Facebook is a good start:

facebook.com/orange?sk=wall&filter=1

Wikipedia can be padded out, more references, etc...

Personally, Orange has increased my costs by over 70% this year ("upgrades"), without actually improving my service. I get less internet allowance. I will not be staying with them come upgrade time.

gjchester

thefutureisntorange wrote: »

Wikipedia can be padded out, more references, etc....

Wikipedia should be based on content, anything thats not verifiable will be removed by the rest of the community or moderates before too long.

Keeping it factual is fine, using it as a soap box is not.

premierfella

I'm pleased to see this thread is still alive and well and serving as a warning to potential Orange customers that the line rental price they see at sign-up may not be the price they pay for the length of the contract.

Long may the thread continue!

flyingben

A contract is a consensual agreement (a tract reached by consensus). Without agreement there is no contract.

Orange wants to rely on a price variation clause ("pvc") included in its standard T&Cs.

In England and Wales, to be able to enforce any term in a contract with a consumer, the term must not be unfair (within the meaning of Unfair Contract Terms Act) or be restricted by the Regulations. The OFT has issued guidance on pvc terms. Google "Unfair Contract Terms Guidance September 2008". Theoretically, a pvc can be fair according to the OFT. However, that is only the case if:
"...the details are clearly and adequately drawn to the consumer's attention." (see paragraph 12.4).

Orange Standard Terms and Conditions are probably clear. But were the standard T&Cs, and in particular the intended pvc term, "adequately drawn to [your] attention"?

The pvc was not drawn to my attention at all. It hasn't got an appropriate heading. It wasn't specially noted with a "**" on the £** per month contract price. In fact it was hidden away. It is expressed in a section to do with the customer's right to cancel.

This is not adequately drawn to the consumer's attention.

Indeed if you were influenced by an Orange advert price of £** per month you have been duped. The price was not £** per month. It was £** until X date, and ** per month plus the % rpi increase plus VAT thereafter.

So what does this mean?

1. Orange can not rely on the pvc term against a consumer as they have not adequately drawn it to the attention of the consumer. (In other words, you didn't agree to that term so it does not form part of your contract.) Test the theory the other way, if Orange is correct that it can have a pvc in the standard T&C's, every consumer must read every set of T&Cs to discover if the stated price for a service will stay the same or not. A price rise (whether potential or not) needs to be stated expressly if it is to form part of the contract.

2. Orange have misrepresented the service price. If you were induced by the figure of £** a month, you have the right to rescind the contract for misrepresentation.

3. Orange's adverts for a service plan at £** a month are misleading and should be reported to the advertising standards agency. If the price is £** plus a potential price rise in the future, it needs to say so.

The need to adequately draw the consumer's attention to a price variation clause is fundamental. If it wasn't achieved, the term is not incorporated into the contract. Moreover, I want to know what the price of utilities are when I agree to them. It isn't appropriate we have to read the detail of the T&Cs to understand how the price might change. That should be made clear by the person seeking to sell the product / service.

Guys_Dad

flyingben wrote: »

A contract is a consensual agreement (a tract reached by consensus). Without agreement there is no contract.

Orange wants to rely on a price variation clause ("pvc") included in its standard T&Cs.

In England and Wales, to be able to enforce any term in a contract with a consumer, the term must not be unfair (within the meaning of Unfair Contract Terms Act) or be restricted by the Regulations. The OFT has issued guidance on pvc terms. Google "Unfair Contract Terms Guidance September 2008". Theoretically, a pvc can be fair according to the OFT. However, that is only the case if:
"...the details are clearly and adequately drawn to the consumer's attention." (see paragraph 12.4).

Orange Standard Terms and Conditions are probably clear. But were the standard T&Cs, and in particular the intended pvc term, "adequately drawn to [your] attention"?

The pvc was not drawn to my attention at all. It hasn't got an appropriate heading. It wasn't specially noted with a "**" on the £** per month contract price. In fact it was hidden away. It is expressed in a section to do with the customer's right to cancel.

This is not adequately drawn to the consumer's attention.

Indeed if you were influenced by an Orange advert price of £** per month you have been duped. The price was not £** per month. It was £** until X date, and ** per month plus the % rpi increase plus VAT thereafter.

So what does this mean?

1. Orange can not rely on the pvc term against a consumer as they have not adequately drawn it to the attention of the consumer. (In other words, you didn't agree to that term so it does not form part of your contract.) Test the theory the other way, if Orange is correct that it can have a pvc in the standard T&C's, every consumer must read every set of T&Cs to discover if the stated price for a service will stay the same or not. A price rise (whether potential or not) needs to be stated expressly if it is to form part of the contract.

2. Orange have misrepresented the service price. If you were induced by the figure of £** a month, you have the right to rescind the contract for misrepresentation.

3. Orange's adverts for a service plan at £** a month are misleading and should be reported to the advertising standards agency. If the price is £** plus a potential price rise in the future, it needs to say so.

The need to adequately draw the consumer's attention to a price variation clause is fundamental. If it wasn't achieved, the term is not incorporated into the contract. Moreover, I want to know what the price of utilities are when I agree to them. It isn't appropriate we have to read the detail of the T&Cs to understand how the price might change. That should be made clear by the person seeking to sell the product / service.

A fine, reasoned theoretical argument. No doubt well worth debating in genial surroundings.

However, Which?, OFCOM and even MSE appear to say that Orange are acting legally.

So, until this is challenged successfully in court, or the arbitrator comes down against them, they appear to be able to make the increases in the real world.

Guys_Dad

premierfella wrote: »

I'm pleased to see this thread is still alive and well and serving as a warning to potential Orange customers that the line rental price they see at sign-up may not be the price they pay for the length of the contract.

Long may the thread continue!

Want to start three others for the other networks who have done the same thing? :idea: