Driving licence query

The_Turner

Trebor16 wrote: »

Perhaps you should learn to read

I'd take your on advice on this one Trebor.

thenudeone

Trebor16 wrote: »

If you produce your licence within the 7 days then you have complied with the law and have committed no offences.

A very different process to your original statement in post 9. But to save you looking for it, here is what you said:-

"Although it is still an offence to fail to produce it to a police officer on demand. "

Have you read the relevant Act?
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164

I'll copy the relevant parts here because so many seem incapable of reading english:

164 Power of constables to require production of driving licence and in certain cases statement of date of birth.
(1)Any of the following persons—
(a)a person driving a motor vehicle on a road,
...
must, on being so required by a constable [F1or vehicle examiner], produce his licence [F2and its counterpart] for examination, so as to enable the constable [F1or vehicle examiner] to ascertain the name and address of the holder of the licence, the date of issue, and the authority by which [F3they were] issued.
..
(6)If a person required under the preceding provisions of this section to produce a licence [F26and its counterpart] ... . . . fails to do so he is, subject to subsections (7) [F28to (8A)] below, guilty of an offence.

(8)In proceedings against any person for the offence of failing to produce a licence [F34and its counterpart] it shall be a defence for him to show that—
(a)within seven days after the production of his licence [F34and its counterpart] was required he produced [F35them] in person at a police station that was specified by him at the time [F36their] production was required, or
(b)he produced [F35them] in person there as soon as was reasonably practicable, or
(c)it was not reasonably practicable for him to produce [F35them] there before the day on which the proceedings were commenced

So - the offence is committed when a licence is not produced.
It is a statutory defence to produce it with 7 days.

The law VERY CLEARLY DOES NOT SAY: "Anyone who fails to produce his licence to a constable or to a police station within seven days is guilty of an offence".

That would suggest that no offence has been committed until 7 days has elapsed. Which would, in turn, mean that the Police would never be able to arrest anyone who failed to produce a licence, even if the police suspected that the driver had no licence, and even if the driver had no address that would be satisfactory for the service of a summons; because an arrest requires a reasonable suspicion of an offence, and the offence would not have been committed yet!

The law was written to ensure that in those circumstances an offence had been committed and therefore the police would have the power to make an arrest under PACE 1984 s25 as it was at the time http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/25/enacted (now repealed by SOCPA 2005 and replaced a broader power of arrest http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/15/part/3/crossheading/powers-of-arrest)

kizkiz

Flyboy152 wrote: »

I don't thnk that has ever been the case.

:rotfl:
I could probably tell you of thousands of people in the last few years that have not prodcued their licence when stopped. Nothing happened to any of them.
You'd be amazed how many people carry absolutely no id whatsoever
I'm not saying there isn't some dubious interpretation of law that says you could be prosecuted, i'm just telling you how the real world works

The_Turner

kizkiz wrote: »

:rotfl:
I could probably tell you of thousands of people in the last few years that have not prodcued their licence when stopped. Nothing happened to any of them.
You'd be amazed how many people carry absolutely no id whatsoever
I'm not saying there isn't some dubious interpretation of law that says you could be prosecuted, i'm just telling you how the real world works

Your old bill, tell us what it does say.

kizkiz

Just read this thread, it's been posted ad infinitum, including three posts above this.

The_Turner

kizkiz wrote: »

Just read this thread, it's been posted ad infinitum, including three posts above this.

Are you confirming Trebor is wrong on this matter?

Trebor16

thenudeone wrote: »

Have you read the relevant Act?
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/164[/

Yes I have thanks.

thenudeone wrote:

So - the offence is committed when a licence is not produced.
It is a statutory defence to produce it with 7 days.

The law VERY CLEARLY DOES NOT SAY: "Anyone who fails to produce his licence to a constable or to a police station within seven days is guilty of an offence".

No it says " fails to do so he is, subject to subsections (7) to (8A)] below, guilty of an offence."

Which is saying that if the licence is not produced within 7 days they are guilty of an offence.

No offence is committed there and then as soon as a driver is unable to produce their licence. The offence is not pointed out by the officer and the person is not cautioned at that point. The offence is not complete until such time as they have failed to produce the licence within 7 days.

thenudeone wrote:

That would suggest that no offence has been committed until 7 days has elapsed. Which would, in turn, mean that the Police would never be able to arrest anyone who failed to produce a licence, even if the police suspected that the driver had no licence, and even if the driver had no address that would be satisfactory for the service of a summons; because an arrest requires a reasonable suspicion of an offence, and the offence would not have been committed yet!

It would suggest no such thing. Once the driver has failed to produce their licence then enquiries would be made with DVLA to establish if they had a licence or not. If they did then they could be prosecuted for failing to produce a licence. I suspect the CPS have not mounted a prosecution for just this offence on its own for a very long time.

If they didn't have a licence then they could deal with that and any other offences that may arise out of the lack of a licence.

thenudeone wrote:

The law was written to ensure that in those circumstances an offence had been committed and therefore the police would have the power to make an arrest under PACE 1984 s25 as it was at the time http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/25/enacted (now repealed by SOCPA 2005 and replaced a broader power of arrest http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/15/part/3/crossheading/powers-of-arrest)

Only if they had reasonable suspicion at the time the person didn't have a licence would they be able to make an arrest using those powers. If they didn't have reasonable suspicion then the driver would be issued with the HORT/1 giving them 7 days to produce.

Trebor16

The_Turner wrote: »

It is but you can't see that.;)

And you are unable to accept that your original statement on its own was not a sufficient explanation of the situation.

Rover_Driver

Trebor16 wrote: »

No offence is committed there and then as soon as a driver is unable to produce their licence. The offence is not pointed out by the officer and the person is not cautioned at that point. The offence is not complete until such time as they have failed to produce the licence within 7 days.

It's the other way round, the offence is complete if the licence is not produced at the time of requirement.

That offence is only 'cancelled' (for want of a better word) if the licence is produced at a Police Station within 7 days.

s. 164 (8) R.T.A. 1988
"In proceedings against any person for the offence of failing to produce a licence and its counterpart it shall be a defence for him to show that—
(a)within seven days after the production of his licence and its counterpart was required he produced them in person at a police station that was specified by him at the time their production was required'

The_Turner

Trebor16 wrote: »

And you are unable to accept that your original statement on its own was not a sufficient explanation of the situation.

You've yet to provide any evidence of that statement being incorrect.