water summons and trust fund

rhoda_baker

Thanks again mart.vader, for your invaluable help, I have now done the final draft of the letter for Ned, one copy for the court manager and one copy also for the allocation questionnaire - now adding those points about the AW code of practice or their charter - where you have quoted, and thank goodness that you did quote because I was not able to open that document with that link, http://www.anglianwater.co.uk/_asset...2)_1-10-12.pdf

don't know why I just got a blank page. Although the other link for AW was working. This is strange because quite a lot of links won't open for me that are 'help' ones...or pdf files, lately...will need the computer man to look. Sorry I digress...

So, in summary, I have done the final draft and it's being sent, one copy with the allocation questionnaire and one copy to the court manager..separately, belt and braces approach here, - I had thought that it was being dealt with at the magistrate court but it seems the allocation questionnaire says its being dealt with at the county court within the crown court. To date, Ned had heard nothing more from AW.....re their response to the first letter outlining his defence. Will update with what progresses...

mart.vader

Hi Rhoda,

Thanks for keeping us informed, but I'm still in the dark as to how the bill came to be at that level;-

"How was the sum of £1,116 arrived at? I thought there were only four payments that had arrived merely late in 18 months, How can AW say he owes £1,116? Even if the payments had been actually missed and unpaid, surely he doesn't pay £279 per month? (4 x 279 = 1116)" I'm not sure what the average annual water bill is, but I'm sure its less than £1,000, (about £300? per annum, for a single person.) Does Ned have four years of arrears?

The link:-
http://www.anglianwater.co.uk/_assets/media/COP_Online_Bro_1-2-10_With_Links_(2)_1-10-12.pdf

leads you to:-

"Section 4 – Paying your bill (Code of Practice on debt)"

***********************************************
Did you manage to get any legal advice? How about your local councillor? Or your MP? The local papers?

It would be a very relevant question for someone to ask AW why they are not following their own Code of Practice.

i.e. What have AW done to "try to help you find a way to pay"

and, why are they taking court action when - "If we know that you are trying to pay your bill, there will be no need to carry out any court action"

It sounds as if you have done all you can, for the moment. Lets hope the Court Manager, or the judge, or even AW come to their senses !

Come on, MSE forumites, there must be someone who can give this lady better advice than I can. She's trying to help a poor old bloke who is being persecuted by his Water Co.

rhoda_baker

Another Ned update...thanks for your reply again mart.vader. much appreciated. First I think Ned's bill includes arrears from a previous year, before he got a paying in book to divide it into monthly sums, he doesn't seem clear....that could explain it though. Ah, and also that they have bought the whole years payments forward due to late paying...just like how council tax people do when the customer is late.

We have sent the letter to the court and the questionnaire and kept copies and sent them signed for so just waiting.

However, this morning he has received a letter from AW trust fund who say they have awarded him 'provisional award' to clear his debt. (What a shame this came on the day before the deadline, to return the court papers and letter, as this info could have been included. )

However, the conditions are:

- that it (the award) will only be paid if AW can confirm he has kept up payments for the next six months, (but - if he cant contact AW to request a new pay in book then that could be tricky though as I doubt under the circumstances they will automatically send one out now- maybe he can photocopy a few blank paying in slips to enable his payments to continue? if they won't send a pay- in book )

- and that AW confirm he has made sufficient payment to cover water usage over the next 6 months.

Also on the back of the letter it says that the awards are intended to give their customers a helping hand on the road to financial stability, give them a fresh start and enable them to pay future water bills without falling into arrears. (all fine until dwp payments go to pot or payzone prob)

It goes on to say 'during these 6 months the customer must show that they are taking steps to become financially stable' (how will he do that?) it goes on to recommend steps the customer can take:

- move to a better tarrif, / have a meter (doesn't need to)

- commit to pay current charges (is doing)

- set up direct debit (unable to do, so will continue with booklet)

It then says that they will contact AW to see if the customer, after 3 months, is getting on, ie making payments) Then in 6 months time (after this 3 months?) a review will be undertaken to establish whether or not the accused, sorry customer, has taken credible steps to achieve financial stability.....

If, he 'ticks these boxes' then he will get it I assume after 6months or 9 ( it doesnt seem clear...)

Well reading between the lines it seems to me that by the time they have finished deliberating, Ned will have paid it nearly off, all being well that his benefits don't get co cked up, or the new located payzone busts....don't really know what to think of this 'provisional award'....?? though I have just read it quick...Any thoughts, anybody?

mart.vader

Hi Rhoda,

The amounts are a little clearer now.

I don't really know what the AW trust are saying either, but it sounds, overall, to be good news. Lets wait to see what the court make of your letter, and whether AW want to drop the case.

rhoda_baker

Ned update....a letter has arrived for Ned, from the court stating that if either party wishes to use the mediation service they must say within 7 days. Ned has indeed already indicated this, in his returned court form and in the letter letter to the court manager, nevertheless, and will send a further copy of that page, indicating he already wanted to do that., and state that he wants to, verbally. His reply has to be via phone or email.

Ah, I would guess at this stage he should mention to the court that he has provisional award from AW trust, would I be right in thinking that?


Predicably it is now a week after the date that AW 'endeavoured' to send an acknowledgement/reply to Ned's letter when they'd confirmed that they had received it....

QUESTION: Does Ned need to attend the court in person for the mediation? I don't think he'd manage the steps.

Un-related but, also being discussed at the post office, two or three pensioners did not get their pensions paid in this week either, apparently there has been an 'error' sending it and they are having to wait until next week to get it...disgraceful.

mart.vader

Hi Rhoda,

rhoda_baker wrote: »

Ned update....a letter has arrived for Ned, from the court stating that if either party wishes to use the mediation service they must say within 7 days. Ned has indeed already indicated this, in his returned court form and in the letter letter to the court manager, nevertheless, and will send a further copy of that page, indicating he already wanted to do that., and state that he wants to, verbally. His reply has to be via phone or email. OK, send them a copy of Ned's letter by email

Ah, I would guess at this stage he should mention to the court that he has provisional award from AW trust, would I be right in thinking that? Yes, I think so

QUESTION: Does Ned need to attend the court in person for the mediation? I don't think he'd manage the steps. The courts, (and AW) are supposed to be sympathetic to the needs of impaired mobility / disabled persons - When the mediation is to be set up, tell them again, and see what they suggest - maybe mediation by post or phone or a meeting at a place accessible to Ned?, I don't know

Sounds like the wheels of justice are turning, but very slowly!

rhoda_baker

Ned update, it's an epic!!!

he has recieved at last, a reply to his letter of 20 Dec which he sent to AW. He got it late on saturday as it would seem that it had been delivered to the neighbour in error as is sometimes the case due to ever changing mailman. I have read the letter and am quite staggered at AW failure to address points such as not following own procedures, (or that of the ofwat, was it?) – the debt collection guide., and to be so arrogant in its reply, in parts.

Anyway the letter from AW states:-

- that they acknowledge his letter,
- they don’t address any points he has made, merely, say “ AW maintains that this claim was issued correctly against you (Ned) and the necessary pre action steps were taken prior to proceedings this was that they sent red ink letters to Ned stating that if he didn’t pay the (late) payment – which would have been paid by then but late, and the following next months payment then the facility of monthly payment would be cancelled.
- -They say “although you(Ned) state that the payzone facility was removed, AW offers ‘numerous’ ways to pay your bill. ie cheque or bank account , neither of which Ted has which us WHY he used payzone …doh…

They then go on to say that they know “AW trust fund have given Ned a granted provisional acceptance.” No surprise there then as it AW and AW trust fund are both AW. They go on to outline when the payments are due and state dates that after 6 months the outstanding will be paid by AW trust fund all being well. The trust fund told Ned this already.

It then says” in respect of these legal proceedings and in view of the provisional agreement from AW trust fund that they propose both parties enter into a consent agreement. (think this has already happened between AW trust and Ned) They enclose a draft agreement based on exactly the same terms as the provisional agreement with AW trust fund, for him to sign and send back to AW. I am guessing that this is the page headed ’schedule 1’ I find it confusing that Ned has to do this as he has already dealt with it through AW trust fund. *more later on that page headed ‘schedule 1.'

It goes on to explain ‘ a consent agreement is legally binding agreement,which is endorsed by the court in which repayments of the outstanding debt under the claim will be made in accordance with the terms agreed by AW trust fund.’ However, The payments are still continuing monthly and Ned had continued and will be doing, already. So in efect payment is already in place without need for this.

It goes on, ‘Once a consent agreement has been endorsed by the court a stay (hold) will be placed on proceedings, to allow you to make payments in line with agreement, should you comply with the terms of the agreement and AW trust fund subsequently make a payment of the remaining balance, then they AW can confirm that proceedings will be discontinued and no ‘further action will be taken against you on this matter’….

They (AW) then advise that ‘a court fee of £45 to enter into the consent agreement for which you will be liable and therefore AW would be grateful of Ned sent them a cheque payable to HMCTS for AW to then give to the court’…So then, basically for Ned to be allowed to continue paying his payments monthly, he has now to pay £45…what if he continues paying his monthly installments and doesn’t pay the £45..(seems a farce to me), and will AW also have to pay the £45 fee, then? - I bet they don’t… Furthermore he doesn’t have a cheque book and if he did become forced to pay it, using someone elses would he be within his rights to write ‘paid under protest’ on it? However Also it does say further in the letter **that no costs will be payable. (£45) So it seems a contradiction going on here. See ** below

It wraps up with saying once AW receive the signed consent agreement allong with the fee, they will write to the court requesting the consent agreement be endorsed and that proceedings are stayed inline with the agreement, but if they don’t receive the signed consent agreement, then they will assume that the defendant rejects the claimants proposals and as such, proceedings will continue, ultimately to a final hearing.

Then, attached, is a ‘consent order’ saying ‘before district judge (blank) upon terms of settlement being agreed by consent it is ordered':

1. the proceedings be stayed generally save for the purpose of bringing the terns into effect
2. that the parties have permission to carry the terms into effect
3. that there be no order as to costs **

Then attached is a page headed ‘schedule 1’ *

1. the defendant shall pay to the claimant the outstanding balance under the claim being the sum of £1,184 (this amount has now shot up to this, why? Should Ned request a breakdown of costs how come its now higher amount?)

• the debt above includes the amount of £145 in respect to the claimants legal costs and court fees. Which contradicts 3. ** above!!!
• this lists dates that payments need to be made, and amounts - much the same amount as he currently continues to pay anyhow., then says if it all goes to plan then AW trust will pay remaining after 6 month.
• if the defendant defaults then the whole lot is payable and AW trust won't pay the reminder either.
• upon payment all going to plan then defendant will be discharged from all further liability
• in the event that the defendant fails to make payment and AW trust doesn’t either then the following provisions will take effect

• the claimant be at liberty to apply for the stay of proceedings to be lifted
• the claimant be entitled to enter judgement against the defendant for entire amount including court fees and solicitor costs.

Then is a part to sign.

I wonder if Ned needs to get a breakdown of how this new higher sum is reached, point out that he is not ordered to pay costs, and I don't think he should sign it yet without these ammendments being made -can he do this?

I am not competely sure of how to proceed.

mart.vader

Hi Rhoda,

I'm not sure how to proceed either.

The arrogant tone of AW's letter is "par for the course".

Do you have any local solicitors who will give you a little free advice?

What about CCCS : https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2402327

Or : http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/

Or Citizens Advice : http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/money_management_index_ew.htm

There are some parts of the agreement that I also find contradictory (e;g; costs), and would be wanting to get further advice on.

As to the £45, I think that is a court fee, and Ned may be able to get a refund by filling in form EX160A " Court fees - Do I have to pay them?"
-
What happened to the Court's free mediation service ? ? Edit: If there is mediation, acceptable to both sides, there seems to be little point in agreements and extra costs.

Let us know what advice you get, and don't give up !.

rhoda_baker

I have sought help from CCCS thanks mart, for the link. In the meantime, I have noticed that neither the 'schedule 1' document nor the 'consent order' have an official court stamp on either...so is this AW just doing it to look like its official?

Also Ned has had an invitation to a free court mediation session visa phone (which is much more convenient,) but will wait to confirm date once he has got answers from AW re amount claimed and costs claimed. i do agree there seems little need for it..perhaps it generates money..

Re local solicitors he and I have both separately found them in the past not to be particularly helpful with issues and usually on the side of the bigger person, unfortunately, (though will still take the fee for the half hour legal aid).....and CAB unfortunately very short staffed and entails a long very early morning queue to perhaps get an appointment to then make an appointment to see someone who may be kind but not specialise in your subject as certainly I have found in the past, sadly. On here has been much more help.

mart.vader

rhoda_baker wrote: »

I have sought help from CCCS thanks mart, for the link. In the meantime, I have noticed that neither the 'schedule 1' document nor the 'consent order' have an official court stamp on either...so is this AW just doing it to look like its official?

This is guesswork, but I think AW intend for Ned to pay the £45 fee, then the court would put their official court stamp on it. And what advice have CCCS given you?

Also Ned has had an invitation to a free court mediation session visa phone (which is much more convenient,) but will wait to confirm date once he has got answers from AW re amount claimed and costs claimed. i do agree there seems little need for it..perhaps it generates money.

That sounds like a little progress. It might be done with a "conference call" i.e. with Ned, the mediator and you and the AW person, all on the line at once. When he, (or you) speak to the "mediator", it would be a good time to point out that (1) he is already paying regularly, without the need for a formal agreement and (2) he made the payments late, because the payzone was out of order, and as he doesn't have a bank account, that's all he can use. And (3) AW haven't helped at all

Re local solicitors he and I have both separately found them in the past not to be particularly helpful with issues and usually on the side of the bigger person, unfortunately, (though will still take the fee for the half hour legal aid).....and CAB unfortunately very short staffed and entails a long very early morning queue to perhaps get an appointment to then make an appointment to see someone who may be kind but not specialise in your subject as certainly I have found in the past, sadly. On here has been much more help.

It's unusual for there, not to be solicitors who offer a free initial interview, but you are in a rural location, so, maybe they don't need to. What you say about CAB is often very true, but I would have thought they could give simple advice about debts, which is what Ned's basic problem is.

Let us know what happens

Mart