Divorce / csa / spousal maintenance

AmandaD28

Giraffe,

I rarely sympathise with NRP's unless they are clearly trying to do right by their children.

My ex walked out on us when my two boys were very small 5yrs and 15months and swanned off on foreign holidays etc with the new bit of stuff. So I think my judgement may be clouded by this he was self employed and I received a nil assessment from the CSA despite the fact he clearly had money and he gloated several times about this in numerous harrassing telephone conversations.

He never paid a penny towards the kids never mind the upkeep of our marital home I had just begun my nurse training at university aswell income for me and indeed earning opportunities were reduced due to both the kids and uni BUT I managed sure things changed but the kids never wanted for anything I kept a roof over our heads, clothes that fit on their backs, food in their tummy's and warm cosy surroundings are they any worse off because we couldn't afford sky anymore ? No
In fact our children are far better off now than they ever were when we were married I've met a lovely man who supports us in every way imaginable we are expecting a new baby in Jan 12 and we have a pretty good standard of living I qualified as a nurse in March just gone and I work 3x 12hr shifts a week my youngest has just started full time school and they are both doing well despite how things were during the break up.

Their father sees them once a fortnight and after his business went bust he is working and being forced to pay maintainance through the CSA he has also moved on again and is now with a different woman however the boys seem to like her they always say good things about her so I have no issues I've never met her myself I judge on how the boys are and they're happy so I'm happy and anything else is none of my business.

I think your ex is taking you for a mug tbh why should you pay for all of those things I'm sure everyone here thinks it is fair for her to have maintainance and also you helping towards putting a roof over their heads is really the decent thing but don't be walked over you also deserve to have a life and somewhere your children can visit you and spend quality time with their father that isnt a grotty little bedsit somewhere while you fund a life of luxury for your ex. What happens when she moves on ? If she moves someone else in where does that leave you ? Still picking up the tab ? I don't think its right.

I really hope you get some resolution sometime soon for both your and the children's sakes but please don't be a mug out of feeling guilty it gives her the power to take you to the cleaners and back she has to meet you half way and if she isn't prepared to you need to get a good solicitor to make her see the error of her ways !

When my ex left us CSA money was all I would ever have hoped to achieve and tbh all I would've wanted I think I'm probably too independant minded to depend on anyone for money that was the whole point of sorting my career out when I did so I could support myself I'd put it off long enough to help my ex establish his business and it was my turn to do something positive for me and my boys it was damned hard work studying and being a single mum but it was worth every second and the sense of achievement I got in March when I passed everything was unbelievable I did that all on my own

Good Luck

x

DS4215

Giraffe,

As someone said earlier work out on SOA, but have your costs for a suitable standard of accomodation to have your kids staying with you - so at least 3 bedrooms - and all the bills. That will give you a starting point. You know her mortgage costs and bills, so work out how much you can pay for and have the same standard of living yourself. This might be all of her mortgage and half her bills.

You also need to get something in place in case you lose your job for any reason. You can't pay out all that if you are signing on. I would also try to make sure that at least some of the house goes to you if anything happens to her - last thing you want to do is pay for the mortgage for the house to go to a new bf in her will! You will both need insurance in case anything bad happens. Don't forget the 25% CSA level child support.

End of the day. You have both split up and are facing the consequences. Neither of you can expect to live in the same standards with the same income, but you can reasonably expect to have the same standard of living afterwards. You need a roof over your head and to put food on the table.

RAS

Giraffe5021 wrote: »

8) I walk away from house leaving family there and retain a modest Mesher Charge until house is sold (again trying to minimise any detrimental impact on the children an enforced move may have)

I think I have gone out of my way to do what I perceive to be the right thing for all concerned (probably except me!!).

I will not be released from the mortgage and will be unable to buy my own property) and furnish it bearing in mind that I am leaving everything in the ex marital home for ex and my children.

I think this a a bad idea.

Giraffe5021 wrote: »

Had it not been for my ex taking on by far the majority of the childare I would not have been able to devote the time to career development albeit that this was to fund larger housing requirements etc etc

How much equity is there in the house?

Based on your best off can you ex afford to pay the mortgage?

It is clear from your comments that this is not a long-owned house with a mortgage nearly paid off but that you have bought more expensive property over time.

Do you seriously want to spend the next 10 -20 years tied to someone who basically wants you to pay for her lifestyle and not benefit yourself? Bear in mind that if she gets in any finacial difficulty (and she seems to think fairly expensively) your credit rating will be wrecked as well.

You need to watch very carefully for some of the wording in any deal because "until the last child leaves full-time education does not mean when the youngest leaves secondary education; it can mean when the last one finishes their university education and that might include post-graduate study.

You are in your forties you suggest and possibly at the peak of your earning power. You need to re-trench and build a new life and that will eb a challenge with only 20-25 years of earning power ahead.

I suggest that you sell the house, and down-size to something she can afford the mortgage on once your CSA and maintenance contributions are taken into account. it might hurt in the short-term but in the longer term, it allows you both to move on.

Giraffe5021

Thanks to you all for your support and advice.
To answer some of the queries raised:
1) c£80k equity (but balance this against my pension pot being c£50k larger than her pension pot)
2) ex has gone away supposedly to ascertain whether she can take on the mortgage - at the mediation meeting I kept a diplomatic silence but the mediator said she would be "stunned" if the existing or any mortgage provider would allow her to take the mortgage on in her own right
3) my proposal is CSA maintenance until age 18 or in full time employment whichever the earlier (it may be that at that time I will wish to - and hopefully be afford to - assist children through higher education should it be their preferred route, but I would like this to be at my option and please do bear in mind my desire to do the best for my children both now and in the long term)
4) my proposal on spousal maintenance was to pay for 3 years (which would give ex chance to retrain / seek more lucrative employment and all of children will be at high school so less dependant upon current level of parental care.....and by this all i am trying to say is they will be older, more independent and more worldly wise NOT that they do not need looking after!!). It was also my suggestion that spousal maintenance would cease upon remarraige or co-habitation after say a few months.
The other point which looking back through the thread I have not made plain is that the children are being used as a pawn by ex to hurt me (and yes it works everytime!!). Constantly arrangements are made and then on the day broken cos one of them is "tired." Again I am trying to roll with this one and hope in the fullness of time that this will come right. To illustrate this point beautifully I went to pick up all 3 of my children and yet again one of them was "too tired" to go to the cinema to see the latest disney film that they had chosen to see (which I do accept is a strenuous and highly physical activity!!). One of younger children said he wanted to come no matter what the other 2 were going to do so he gets in car - ex comes out and tells him through car window and I quote..... "You are a selfish little boy, you have ruined the whole day for everyone" and storms back in the house. Good work Mum!! He instantly dissolves into tears and I had to reassure him he had done nothing wrong and if he wanted to see me he was right to say so. I cannot tell you how much that hurt me. She is placing kids in a position where they have to choose and as she REFUSES to allow them to stay overnight with me they spend the vast majority of time with her so naturally try to please the parent they are with almost all the time. Time after time this type of event has happened and time after time I have said I want them to stay overnight.
At next mediation meeting I raised the car incident with child and...... she flatly denies it ever happened!! God if I had only had the foresight to have my phone on audio record so I could play it back during the meeting.
Anyway ...... am taking tougher stance with ex and trying to take small steps with children so that the whole effect (and yes I do of course bear some of the responsibility!!) this situation has had on them is kept to a minimum but I cannot accept children being used as pawns in this way. I think it will be psychologically damaging and upsetting them and she doesnt seem to care so long as it hurts me. And boy does it hurt me!!
Sorry this has turned into a rant rather than a reply but i hope you will forgive me for getting it off my chest!

Bubby

Giraffe5021 wrote: »

Thanks to you all for your support and advice.
To answer some of the queries raised:
1) c£80k equity (but balance this against my pension pot being c£50k larger than her pension pot)

This makes a bit of a difference i.e you aren't giving away your fortune by letting her have the house in fact it is probably fairly balanced.
2) ex has gone away supposedly to ascertain whether she can take on the mortgage - at the mediation meeting I kept a diplomatic silence but the mediator said she would be "stunned" if the existing or any mortgage provider would allow her to take the mortgage on in her own right

I too would be amazed but if she cannot are you prepared to stay on the mortgage until the last child finishes secondary education? I have known alot of people do this and there are ways around you being affected by her not paying.
3) my proposal is CSA maintenance until age 18 or in full time employment whichever the earlier (it may be that at that time I will wish to - and hopefully be afford to - assist children through higher education should it be their preferred route, but I would like this to be at my option and please do bear in mind my desire to do the best for my children both now and in the long term)

CSA is up to 19 years of age now and they have to be in full time education, after that they are entitled to persue you for costs towards university through the courts but this is not something worth worrying about at this point.
4) my proposal on spousal maintenance was to pay for 3 years (which would give ex chance to retrain / seek more lucrative employment and all of children will be at high school so less dependant upon current level of parental care.....and by this all i am trying to say is they will be older, more independent and more worldly wise NOT that they do not need looking after!!). It was also my suggestion that spousal maintenance would cease upon remarraige or co-habitation after say a few months.

That is a very sensible offer, once they are at secondary school they will be much more independent.
The other point which looking back through the thread I have not made plain is that the children are being used as a pawn by ex to hurt me (and yes it works everytime!!). Constantly arrangements are made and then on the day broken cos one of them is "tired." Again I am trying to roll with this one and hope in the fullness of time that this will come right. To illustrate this point beautifully I went to pick up all 3 of my children and yet again one of them was "too tired" to go to the cinema to see the latest disney film that they had chosen to see (which I do accept is a strenuous and highly physical activity!!). One of younger children said he wanted to come no matter what the other 2 were going to do so he gets in car - ex comes out and tells him through car window and I quote..... "You are a selfish little boy, you have ruined the whole day for everyone" and storms back in the house. Good work Mum!! He instantly dissolves into tears and I had to reassure him he had done nothing wrong and if he wanted to see me he was right to say so. I cannot tell you how much that hurt me. She is placing kids in a position where they have to choose and as she REFUSES to allow them to stay overnight with me they spend the vast majority of time with her so naturally try to please the parent they are with almost all the time. Time after time this type of event has happened and time after time I have said I want them to stay overnight.
At next mediation meeting I raised the car incident with child and...... she flatly denies it ever happened!! God if I had only had the foresight to have my phone on audio record so I could play it back during the meeting.
Anyway ...... am taking tougher stance and trying to take small steps with children that the whole (and yes I do of course bear some of the responsibility!!) situation has had on them but I cannot accept children being used as pawns in this way. I think it will be psychologically damaging them and she doesnt seem to care so long as it hurts me. And boy does it hurt me!!
Sorry this has turned into a rant rather than a reply but i hope you will forgive me for getting it off my chest!

The issue with the children is a whole other ball game:(

Can I ask how long ago it was that you split up? It could be that it is all very raw, do any of your children have mobile phones that you could contact them on for a chat in the evenings? The children are old enough for the courts to listen to how they feel about contact so establishing a good relationship with them is key at this point. Please don't let this issue slip though keep on the ball as far as contact is concerned and don't allow yourself to be dragged into any arguments just keep calm and always tell the children that you love them. One thing never ever to do is to bad mouth their mother (which I am sure that you don't do anyway) as children feel a strong sense of loyalty to the remaining parent.

There may be hope for things to improve with time......unless the reasons for your split included someone else on your side and then I fear that things may never improve:(

Giraffe5021

Thanks Bubby,
to answer the points you made in the same order (sorry new here so cant do the cutting part of people's posts and pasting it!!):
1) the mediator has calculated that I should be entitled to c£30k (there are jointly accrued debts to factor in too). I am happy to be flexible and to an extent philosophical about the financial settlement BUT I do need to factor into the equaltion that I now have to furnish / equip a property for myself (and hopefully for children to stay in the fullness of time) and I cant do this if I am totally scr*wed to the floor financially
2) I am prepared to stay on the mortgage (for the sake of the children) but obviously i would MUCH prefer not to. It will almost certainly prevent me from having a mortgage in my own right and therefore prevents me from owning a property. I know by staying on the mortgage there are risks but the intention was that ex would have to indemnify me if i were ever called upon in this respect and either the debt repaid PDQ or the mesher charge %age would be adjusted accordingly
3) agreed!
The split was over 2 years ago - no one else involved - just a mutual growing apart and it was becoming intolerable to the extent that it was having an impact on the children hence my decision to leave. Having said that I had no idea that 2 years down the road it would still be such utter carnage!
I am acutely aware of the children issue believe me. I do EVERYTHING I can to stay in contact with them. The only contact I have been "permitted" with my daughter over last 2 weeks was to pick her up at 1am from a school day trip from overseas and even though I know I was being used I still did it cos I was desperate to see her. Am working with mediator to resolve this child access issue. Problem is my solicitor has advised that even if I get court ordered access (which in her words would costs a fortune) it can still not be worth the paper its written on as all ex has to do is say that they are ill / tired and I can then hardly drag them off into the car and force them to come. On to a bit of a hiding to nothing really..... but I will not let it go and will do everyhthing in my power to maintain a relationship with them. The point I think ex is missing is that if she does not permit them to stay with me its her responsibility 24/7 which must surely make her life harder and prevent her from moving on in her life.
I have been told by a wise old owl of a friend (female coincidentally) that the only time things will improve is when she meets someone else and wants time to spend with that person.
Any takers??? (and yes I am saying that in jest!!!)

fannyanna

Would you consider 50/50 shared care?

Giraffe5021

In an ideal world yes (and certainly yes to overnight), but the practicality is i am starting a new job literally on monday - contractual hours are 8-30am to 5-30pm so would make the take to / pick up from school issue an impossibility. Realistically I cant walk into a new job on that sort of salary and start turning up late and sciving off early to pick them up from school. But as I mentioned above if I could have my children overnight say 3 nights a week I would bite your arm off!!
The other factor is ex actually works at the school where the younger ones go so that element works really well as she has to be there at same time they start. As I have said in earlier posts as the younger ones get older this will become less of an issue as they become more self sufficient at high school age.

Update - as I cant get her to let them stay one night a week I think the prospect of her going for a 50/50 time split is how can i put it.......... remote(!!!!) and probably renders most of my above comments redundant!

Bubby

Giraffe5021 wrote: »

Thanks Bubby,
to answer the points you made in the same order (sorry new here so cant do the cutting part of people's posts and pasting it!!):
1) the mediator has calculated that I should be entitled to c£30k (there are jointly accrued debts to factor in too). I am happy to be flexible and to an extent philosophical about the financial settlement BUT I do need to factor into the equaltion that I now have to furnish / equip a property for myself (and hopefully for children to stay in the fullness of time) and I cant do this if I am totally scr*wed to the floor financially

In terms of furnishing this is something you could do quite cheaply so I wouldn't worry about this as its arguing over beans if you know what I mean but instead of soming out of the overall settlement this should be considered when calculating spousal maintenance.
2) I am prepared to stay on the mortgage (for the sake of the children) but obviously i would MUCH prefer not to. It will almost certainly prevent me from having a mortgage in my own right and therefore prevents me from owning a property. I know by staying on the mortgage there are risks but the intention was that ex would have to indemnify me if i were ever called upon in this respect and either the debt repaid PDQ or the mesher charge %age would be adjusted accordingly

Yes the indemnify bit was what I was looking to say but had a bit of baby brain earlier;)
I would ask your wife to consult various mortgage companies to see whether they would class her spousal maintenance as income as this would make the possibility of her taking over the mortgage much more feasible.
3) agreed!
The split was over 2 years ago - no one else involved - just a mutual growing apart and it was becoming intolerable to the extent that it was having an impact on the children hence my decision to leave. Having said that I had no idea that 2 years down the road it would still be such utter carnage!
I am acutely aware of the children issue believe me. I do EVERYTHING I can to stay in contact with them. The only contact I have been "permitted" with my daughter over last 2 weeks was to pick her up at 1am from a school day trip from overseas and even though I know I was being used I still did it cos I was desperate to see her. Am working with mediator to resolve this child access issue. Problem is my solicitor has advised that even if I get court ordered access (which in her words would costs a fortune) it can still not be worth the paper its written on as all ex has to do is say that they are ill / tired and I can then hardly drag them off into the car and force them to come. On to a bit of a hiding to nothing really..... but I will not let it go and will do everyhthing in my power to maintain a relationship with them. The point I think ex is missing is that if she does not permit them to stay with me its her responsibility 24/7 which must surely make her life harder and prevent her from moving on in her life.
I have been told by a wise old owl of a friend (female coincidentally) that the only time things will improve is when she meets someone else and wants time to spend with that person.
Any takers??? (and yes I am saying that in jest!!!)

I am very shocked that this has been going on for 2 years:eek::eek:, she is obviously deeply unhappy with the split and is trying to punish you in whatever way possible sadly. The contact issue is definitely something worth pursuing, perhaps if you could both come to an arrangement more amicably she would be more amicable with the children?? I know its an awful situation to have to try and please her to see your children but this seems to be the only thing that works in these situations (does not make it right at all:()

I would have a sit down, look at rentals so that you can work out what you can afford to pay her on a monthly basis that will give you your figure for spousal and child maintenance, deduct your child maintenance from this and you have the figure you can offer her for spousal maintenance with an end date of when your youngest goes to secondary school. In terms of the overall settlement, work out the total figure of both pension pots, any assets and house equity. If you have to stay on the mortgage bearing in mind this will affect your ability to buy another house I would have an end date for this (end of full time education) and look for more of a 50/50 stretching to 60/40 split. If you are able to come off the mortgage I would look for a 60/40 split at a stretch 70/30. Once you have your facts and figures to hand then you could go to her with an email and tell her this is your final offer before engaging a solicitor (or discuss this with a mediator). Obviously if you have to pay solicitors fees she will have to accept that the pot will end up substantially smaller and I would emphasise this point.

If you have a court order for contact and the children are regularly ill/tired etc you can take this back to court and they won't look upon this in a good light!

Good luck

fannyanna

Giraffe5021 wrote: »

Update - as I cant get her to let them stay one night a week I think the prospect of her going for a 50/50 time split is how can i put it.......... remote(!!!!) and probably renders most of my above comments redundant!

I'd suggested it because like you said a court order isn't worth the paper it's written on in relation to part-time contact. Shared care is a whole different ball game. It would be harder for her not to comply with a shared care order.

With regards to the new job can you look into some form on childcare for work hours? It would likely be school drop off/collection and a few hours after school.