Sunday working and new job

Naf

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

Absolutely, either you have a relationship with God every day of the week, or you don't have a relationship with Him, IMO.

Very true. He has asked us to show Him how we value this relationship by doing particular things He asks (John 14:15: "If ye love me, keep my commandments). As far as our discussion is concerned there is two; to keep the Sabbath holy as a day of rest, and to attend our church services to worship Him.

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

I've been known to turn up at the end of the service, because for me, church isn't about being at the service, it's about my relationship with my fellow Christians. If we've been away for a few weekends, we keep in touch with them through the week. There is actually online church, which has been a Godsend (I use the word advisedly) for those who really CAN'T get to services.

We don't have online church. There's more (or should be) to Sunday services than just hearing what's been said, or even than just being there.

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

But then it's easy for a division to arise, if you never meet all your colleagues. And personally, I feel it would be a sad situation if Christians never worked on Sundays, so never got to meet the Sunday staff team.

Never had that myself. I don't advocate hiring people just to work Sundays. But I think the argument works the opposite way too; if people want a job just to work Sundays, its a shame if they don't get to meet their weekday colleagues...
Plenty of places hire just to cover weekends, and lots of people only work a set two or three weekdays. I don't see why a Christian who does want to observe the Sabbath by 'resting from their labours' shouldn't be able to. I appear to be in a very small minority...

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

Not to mention the message it sends to the part-time staff if one of the full-timers works as few Sundays as possible so that they can go to church - I can't help feeling it won't be "I really respect their integrity, not compromising their beliefs", it will be similar to the reaction to the MD who works as few Fridays as possible so they can play golf.

Again, I've never had this.

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

Again, personally, I think that your observance of the sabbath and its acceptability to God is something to work out yourself. There's a far wider range of jobs than emergency services where Sunday working is required, without starting on 'non-essentials' like shopping and catering.

Lots of jobs demand Sunday working from their staff, but I can't really think of anything else I would consider vital like the emergency services...

eschaton wrote: »

It's not about being correct. 20 years + experience in food retail here. You can opt out of Sunday working but if you want to do that then maybe retail isn't the line of work for you. If you opted out, stand back and watch how much your new colleagues will admire you and count down the days until your employment is terminated during your probation period.

Not sure what kind of person you are/people you have worked with; but neither my colleagues nor managers have ever had issue with me opting out of Sundays.

bluenoseam wrote: »

if you want to be a manager, it's a given that you'd be willing to work Sundays.

Again, not an issue I've come across. I have been in various management roles and never been a problem.

bluenoseam wrote: »

My post regarding the fact that God is omnipotent stands true, i've been in and around the Church long enough to understand a good clergyman, regardless of religion, denomination or level, will provide spiritual guidance at any time. The reason Church exists is because it's convenient, rather than having masses of people who need individual services it's more convenient for them to congregate within one place at a given time. However there's a market in alternative ministry which has existed for decades, for example i know every one of my Dad's sermons during his final charge (1990-94) was recorded, mostly in order that the elderly and infirm could recieve copies should they so wish. I know my local "church" (for reasons which are irrelevant here that's put like that) have recorded sermons on a weekly basis for near 30 years! Perhaps i'm clouded by my own experience within the life of a Minister, but a good Minister will preach any time, anywhere, perhaps my point was missed, but that's one of the things we're trying to get across.

There is no recording of our services. Yes, the local leaders will always be available if I need them; but that's still not a substitute for being at the Sunday services, and doesn't help as far as making an effort to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest.

bluenoseam wrote: »

There's also the central belief structure that God is forgiving, while you undoubtedly believe that Church is important, you also understand the quandry that work is ALSO important. God will not cast anyone aside for having to work on a Sunday rather than attend Church, that's something I would expect any believer to understand. When it comes down to it, you'll also understand that while you can do everything within reason to avoid working Sundays, there comes a point where reason no longer exists - a job is a job in this market. God will not judge you as a bad person because it's your job to work a Sunday provided you make steps to live your life following the guidelines set by the Bible, there's scope there for compromise, especially now that advances in other areas mean that Church is no longer limited to the times when the "big building is open".

Reason always exists. If I just worked Sundays without making an effort to avoid it, I'd not be showing any willingness to observe the commandment and that would be wrong. If there really is nothing I can do about it (and granted there may not be in this case) then it would be acceptable; although still not ideal. If that's the case, for my conscience I would have to continue looking for work where I could opt out without problem.

bluenoseam wrote: »

I hope you understand that many of the posts here have been practical viewpoints on how you can live a good life while being in a situation where your employer requires you to work a Sunday. Religion is a funny business, some people respect it, others will downright think it's nonsense - you need to understand that there's 6bn people on the planet, not everyone's going to believe the same as you and respect that. I saw one post which i'd consider borderline critical ("beliefs don't put food on the table") but in the end it's also a statement of rational thought. The rest of it (theology, straight talking) was simply debate on the probabilities of what marching up to your boss and saying "my religious beliefs mean it's difficult for me to accept working on a Sunday" will achieve - all of which, whichever way you want to dress it up, is extremely likely to occur!

I found others more offensive than that TBH. I appreciate that even within the Christian community there are a wide variety of different beliefs, so I don't even expect all Christians to fully appreciate where I'm coming from, let alone anyone else.

Naf

scheming_gypsy wrote: »

why? you're complaining about having to go to work on a Sunday because you're a Christian yet you'll go to church on a Sunday and the vicar / whoever leading the service is working. Whether it's free or not it's still the Sabbath and they are still working

How is it working? Its not their job.

Humphrey10 wrote: »

Why should you get special treatment for being christian? If I go into to work tomorrow and say that fairies have told me that working wednesdays is wrong, therefore I require wednesdays off work, would that be alright?

You'd be well within your rights to request it. You might be hard pushed to come up with evidence of any religious belief structure though.
Your comparison, however, whilst it might seem quite reasonable to your atheistic view, is offensive.

orangeslimes wrote: »

You haven't even discussed hours with your new employer. Surely that is the first thing to do, and mention you prefer not to work Sundays?

Just as soon as the manager calls this week with the first hours they need me for, I'll be having a chat; as I planned from before starting this thread.

Naf

This is in no way directed at anyone, and not meant to be serious in any way: its just slightly relevant and reasonably amusing.
It's probably not true, just a forwarded email.

In Florida, an atheist created a case against the upcoming Easter and Passover holy days. He hired an attorney to bring a discrimination case Against Christians, Jews and observances of their holy days. The argument was that it was unfair that atheists had no such recognized days. The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the passionate presentation by the lawyer, the judge banged his gavel declaring, "Case dismissed!"

The lawyer immediately stood objecting to the ruling saying, "Your honor, how can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter and others. The Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah, yet my client and all other atheists have no such holidays." The judge leaned forward in his chair saying, "But you do. Your client, counsel, is woefully ignorant." The lawyer said, "Your Honor, we are unaware of any special observance or holiday for atheists."

The judge said, "The calendar says April 1st is April Fools Day. Psalm 14:1 states, 'The fool says in his heart, there is no God.' Thus, it is the opinion of this court, that if your client says there is no God, then he is a fool. Therefore, April 1st is his day. Court is adjourned.

DCFC79

The places ive worked in retail the management worlked sundays in turn so 1 week the store manager would be in and next 1 would be teh duty manager and next 1 assistant manager would be in. Department managers would tend to be in as well to do certain jobs that needed to be completed. But for busier times then 2 or 3 would be in for the busier periods.

eschaton

Naf wrote: »

Can I still say to them 'by the way, I don't work Sundays'? And if they then decided to take the job offer away, would I have claim on religious discrimination?

Naf wrote: »

Just as soon as the manager calls this week with the first hours they need me for, I'll be having a chat; as I planned from before starting this thread.

And if they don't agree on the hours you want to work you will have them up in court next week for discrimination?

You couldn't make this up :rotfl:

t0rt0ise

Naf wrote: »

Your comparison, however, whilst it might seem quite reasonable to your atheistic view, is offensive.

Ah well, he offended the christians and you offended the atheists with your joke so now you're all quits.

eschaton

DCFC79 wrote: »

The places ive worked in retail the management worled sundays in turn so 1 week the store manager would be in and next 1 would be teh duty manager and next 1 assistant manager would be in. Department managers would tend to be in as well to do certain jobs that needed to be completed.

Unless they were working in this place with Naf, they would be working every 2nd Sunday

DCFC79

eschaton wrote: »

Unless they were working in this place with Naf, they would be working every 2nd Sunday

no they most likely werent same place as Naf

Savvy_Sue

skintandscared wrote: »

the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discriminating against individuals because of their religion in hiring, firing, and other terms and conditions of employment.

The Act also requires employers to reasonably accommodate the religious practices of an employee or prospective employee, unless to do so would create an undue hardship upon the employer.

Which, in a small organisation, it might well.

Naf wrote: »

How is it working? Its not their job.

I'm quite bemused by this statement (about lay preachers not working by delivering a sermon).

DH does a fair bit of lay preaching, to promote the work of the charity he manages to local churches. He works very hard preparing, and it's no picnic leading a service and delivering a sermon. And in his time, he's been a church elder and preached and led services in that context too. To say that 'it's not their job' because they're not paid for it is - bizarre?

As for non-emergency services jobs which are vital, let's try the following:

Home care - ie getting people up and dressed, helping with meals, personal care

Care and nursing homes - ditto

Doctors, nurses, all other hospital staff other than those in A&E

Plumbers, electricians, maintenance staff - I have a sibling who's been on call every other weekend (and more) for a large facility

Drug treatment centres

Road sweepers and refuse collectors, some of whom double as gritters in the winter - some town centres have these working 7 days a week.

As for how you keep the sabbath when you've got to work on Sundays, pick another day when you will dedicate yourself to NOT working, maybe stay off MSE (which if you were an orthodox Jew would be a definite NO on the sabbath!) and spend time in quiet and contemplation.

Isn't there a verse in one of the Pauline letters saying that there's no distinction between days? I'll look it up when I get home if no-one else can find it. Whoops, I'm at work with DH. He's been building book-cases, because there's no time or space to do it in the week.

One of his colleagues is downstairs cooking for the clients who'll be in tonight. They used not to open on Sundays, but then there were actually NO services open for them - no advice, no help, no meals, nowhere warm / dry when the weather's bad. Unless the clients could get into church services, where mostly they're not made to feel particularly welcome. It's not emergency services, but it is service ...

Naf

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

I'm quite bemused by this statement (about lay preachers not working by delivering a sermon).

DH does a fair bit of lay preaching, to promote the work of the charity he manages to local churches. He works very hard preparing, and it's no picnic leading a service and delivering a sermon. And in his time, he's been a church elder and preached and led services in that context too. To say that 'it's not their job' because they're not paid for it is - bizarre?

Its nothing to do with the pay. It isn't, and never should be employment (see John 10:12 for clarification).
Don't get me wrong, its a lot of work. My dad was the local minister for about 15 years (three 5 year stints) while I was growing up, I've led various services and lessons and held many positions within the local congregation. Its still not 'work' as the concept is meant by scripture; it's not a profession, although it has incorrectly become this in some sects... It is selfless service to our fellow men.

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

As for how you keep the sabbath when you've got to work on Sundays, pick another day when you will dedicate yourself to NOT working, maybe stay off MSE (which if you were an orthodox Jew would be a definite NO on the sabbath!) and spend time in quiet and contemplation.

Again, not the point; and, clearly, I'm not an orthodox Jew.
Isaiah 58:13 "If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words"