Sunday working and new job

Naf

eschaton wrote: »

You want a full time job in retailing at a higher than basic level and do not want to works Sundays. Sunday is a key day in retailing these days, one of the buisiest, this is not 20 years ago..

Considering I have worked in full time retail, food, and leisure jobs for the vast majority of my working life, and only one job stated I had to work Sundays (and that was only because I found it at such short notice), I'm not entirely certain you're correct here.

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

the theological debate was to explain what the Sabbath actually was

The debate is still totally unnecessary. I'm fully aware of my beliefs; the Sabbath is Sunday (the specific day chosen isn't relevant, and as pointed out it has changed over the years. But the day we use is Sunday, and there are no services I can attend any other day. Its not how it works for me just to choose 'another' Sabbath to suit me or my employer) and I would prefer to be able to abide by the fourth commandment and 'do no work therein'.

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

did you really need to start a thread to discover that the best course of action would to be talk to them amicably, to not sue [as if] and to work Sundays if necessary? Surely that's basic common sense?

I wasn't asking what my best course of action was. I already had every intention of simply going to discuss it and find their response. I wanted to know if I had any grounds to come back to them with should they refuse. Again 'claim' was a poor choice of vocabulary; also I hope I'm getting worried over what will turn out to be nothing. I suspect there will be little issue with the part time staff covering Sundays.

SarEl wrote: »

Seconded. And as for all the "bigoted trolling" - there wasn't any. In common with your previous post you seem to confuse bigotry and disagreement (with you). People who disagree with you are not bigots or trolls - nor are they wrong. It seems to be a common theme on your threads here - ask for advice, and have a go at those who disagree with you.

I'm trying my best not to have a go at people; but comments like "which particular cult to you belong to" I find extremely offensive. Not to mention the number of sarcastic comments made regarding paid ministry, going to the archbishop, emergency services etc. Is it any wonder I feel like people are just baiting me?

SarEl wrote: »

Now before I pop off to church, I would invite you to reflect on Matthew 22:21. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's..." It is entirely possible to submit to the rules of authority (a contract which says that your working week includes Sundays) without compromising your faith. People are christians or muslims or sikhs or whatever, every day of the week, and not just on Sundays - or that is what they are supposed to be. And the authority of Jesus is a "new testament" - it fulfills and expands on the Old Testament. So I guess He would know what he was talking about.

I did wonder from your correct capitalisation earlier if you were a churchgoer yourself. Before I head off myself can I point out that the 'Render unto Caesar' refers more to taxation, although I do like your interpretation also. I was more thinking along the lines of Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath"; and Matthew 12:11 "What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the Sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?". These scriptures give Emergency Services automatic permission for Sunday employment, as human life is of infinitely more importance than any other principle. They also point out that it would be foolish to refuse to work on a Sunday if your livelihood depended on it. In these cases it is perfectly possible and acceptable to work on a Sunday and your observance of the Sabbath still be acceptable to God; however, to simply accept that working on a Sunday is inevitable, and not do what I can to try to keep the Sabbath holy would not be showing any respect to the principle.

I know you don't have any real respect for me SarEl, and I'm sorry that's the case. Although I don't have a 'newbie' flyer on my profile, I've not been here that long, and its only recently I've had things I needed help with. I've not done a very good job of asking either time; perhaps I need to work on making the tone of my posts clearer...

Naf

Googlewhacker wrote: »

I'd love to know why my posts are bigoted? Or is it just as above that I disagree with you?

Sorry, I didn't mean that everything I hadn't thanked I considered 'bigoted trolling', and I was being harsh I suppose when I said that after I reviewed the thread late last night reading some of the comments posted.

You absolutely have a point about the hours and me being only one of 2 full timers; this is the reason I am worried about their response. But at the same time, I see no reason why part time staff can't do full days on a Sunday - especially as they're most likely to be students (2 unis here in York after all) and won't be able to take so many mid-week hours. We shall see.

Savvy_Sue

I'm just back from church, where we're having a 4 weeks series on 'God at work'. I nearly heckled: when I worked in a secular organisation, the most difficult people I had to manage were the Christians, and I find that sad! I hope that's never said about me, and I hope it doesn't get to be said about the OP either. Be gracious in what you ask, and how you ask it, above all ...

SarEl wrote: »

Now before I pop off to church, I would invite you to reflect on Matthew 22:21. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's..." It is entirely possible to submit to the rules of authority (a contract which says that your working week includes Sundays) without compromising your faith. People are christians or muslims or sikhs or whatever, every day of the week, and not just on Sundays - or that is what they are supposed to be.

Absolutely, either you have a relationship with God every day of the week, or you don't have a relationship with Him, IMO.
I've always felt that if the rubbish shifts (however you define them) are all left for the most junior staff then morale's likely to suffer in the long term.

Naf wrote: »

there are no services I can attend any other day.

I've been known to turn up at the end of the service, because for me, church isn't about being at the service, it's about my relationship with my fellow Christians. If we've been away for a few weekends, we keep in touch with them through the week. There is actually online church, which has been a Godsend (I use the word advisedly) for those who really CAN'T get to services.

Naf wrote: »

I suspect there will be little issue with the part time staff covering Sundays.

But then it's easy for a division to arise, if you never meet all your colleagues. And personally, I feel it would be a sad situation if Christians never worked on Sundays, so never got to meet the Sunday staff team.

Not to mention the message it sends to the part-time staff if one of the full-timers works as few Sundays as possible so that they can go to church - I can't help feeling it won't be "I really respect their integrity, not compromising their beliefs", it will be similar to the reaction to the MD who works as few Fridays as possible so they can play golf.

Naf wrote: »

These scriptures give Emergency Services automatic permission for Sunday employment, as human life is of infinitely more importance than any other principle. They also point out that it would be foolish to refuse to work on a Sunday if your livelihood depended on it. In these cases it is perfectly possible and acceptable to work on a Sunday and your observance of the Sabbath still be acceptable to God; however, to simply accept that working on a Sunday is inevitable, and not do what I can to try to keep the Sabbath holy would not be showing any respect to the principle.

Again, personally, I think that your observance of the sabbath and its acceptability to God is something to work out yourself. There's a far wider range of jobs than emergency services where Sunday working is required, without starting on 'non-essentials' like shopping and catering.

And maybe I'm the only one who remembers that while Christians may have been leaping up and down for the Keep Sunday Special campaign, there was research afterwards to suggest that churchgoers were among the most regular shoppers. We've got up, you see, and got out to church, and there's the shop, so we'll just pop in ...

No, on balance I think we SHOULD have Christians in the workplace on Sundays, just as we SHOULD have them there every other day of the week, and in pretty much every kind of workplace as well.

eschaton

Naf wrote: »

Considering I have worked in full time retail, food, and leisure jobs for the vast majority of my working life, and only one job stated I had to work Sundays (and that was only because I found it at such short notice), I'm not entirely certain you're correct here.

It's not about being correct. 20 years + experience in food retail here. You can opt out of Sunday working but if you want to do that then maybe retail isn't the line of work for you.

If you opted out, stand back and watch how much your new colleagues will admire you and count down the days until your employment is terminated during your probation period.

bluenoseam

(beware, a kinda long one)

Firstly if you'd read his post, it suggested that if you wanted to work anything above basic level in retail you'd have to work Sundays, a viewpoint for which he's technically correct. To open on a Sunday you require a keyholder (generally senior sales, supervisor or manager of some description) - full timers might score Sundays off based on our contracts, but if you want to be a manager, it's a given that you'd be willing to work Sundays.

My post regarding the fact that God is omnipotent stands true, i've been in and around the Church long enough to understand a good clergyman, regardless of religion, denomination or level, will provide spiritual guidance at any time. The reason Church exists is because it's convenient, rather than having masses of people who need individual services it's more convenient for them to congregate within one place at a given time. However there's a market in alternative ministry which has existed for decades, for example i know every one of my Dad's sermons during his final charge (1990-94) was recorded, mostly in order that the elderly and infirm could recieve copies should they so wish. I know my local "church" (for reasons which are irrelevant here that's put like that) have recorded sermons on a weekly basis for near 30 years! Perhaps i'm clouded by my own experience within the life of a Minister, but a good Minister will preach any time, anywhere, perhaps my point was missed, but that's one of the things we're trying to get across.

There's also the central belief structure that God is forgiving, while you undoubtedly believe that Church is important, you also understand the quandry that work is ALSO important. God will not cast anyone aside for having to work on a Sunday rather than attend Church, that's something I would expect any believer to understand. When it comes down to it, you'll also understand that while you can do everything within reason to avoid working Sundays, there comes a point where reason no longer exists - a job is a job in this market. God will not judge you as a bad person because it's your job to work a Sunday provided you make steps to live your life following the guidelines set by the Bible, there's scope there for compromise, especially now that advances in other areas mean that Church is no longer limited to the times when the "big building is open".

I hope you understand that many of the posts here have been practical viewpoints on how you can live a good life while being in a situation where your employer requires you to work a Sunday. Religion is a funny business, some people respect it, others will downright think it's nonsense - you need to understand that there's 6bn people on the planet, not everyone's going to believe the same as you and respect that. I saw one post which i'd consider borderline critical ("beliefs don't put food on the table") but in the end it's also a statement of rational thought. The rest of it (theology, straight talking) was simply debate on the probabilities of what marching up to your boss and saying "my religious beliefs mean it's difficult for me to accept working on a Sunday" will achieve - all of which, whichever way you want to dress it up, is extremely likely to occur!

skintandscared_2

Naf wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't mean that everything I hadn't thanked I considered 'bigoted trolling', and I was being harsh I suppose when I said that after I reviewed the thread late last night reading some of the comments posted.

You absolutely have a point about the hours and me being only one of 2 full timers; this is the reason I am worried about their response. But at the same time, I see no reason why part time staff can't do full days on a Sunday - especially as they're most likely to be students (2 unis here in York after all) and won't be able to take so many mid-week hours. We shall see.

What if all the part time staff are devout Christians too? Will it affect your decision to employ them if they are, and say that they don't want to work Sundays?

Having said that, I work for a large City law firm and we have several jewish employees who leave early every Friday in the winter, before it gets dark. I'd imagine there is some arrangement whereby they work additional hours during the rest of the week to make up for this, otherwise it would be very unfair.

scheming_gypsy

Naf wrote: »

Not to mention the number of sarcastic comments made regarding paid ministry,.

why? you're complaining about having to go to work on a Sunday because you're a Christian yet you'll go to church on a Sunday and the vicar / whoever leading the service is working. Whether it's free or not it's still the Sabbath and they are still working

Humphrey10

Why should you get special treatment for being christian? If I go into to work tomorrow and say that fairies have told me that working wednesdays is wrong, therefore I require wednesdays off work, would that be alright?

orangeslimes

You haven't even discussed hours with your new employer. Surely that is the first thing to do, and mention you prefer not to work Sundays?

skintandscared_2

the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discriminating against individuals because of their religion in hiring, firing, and other terms and conditions of employment.

　
The Act also requires employers to reasonably accommodate the religious practices of an employee or prospective employee, unless to do so would create an undue hardship upon the employer.