Would you be happy with 1 child?

dizziblonde

jw1096 wrote: »

!!!!!!???????? Does anyone else think this is possibly the most selfish thing they have ever heard??? How is it YOU get angry because he has a child independently of you? The child presumably came around before you did, I think you need a change of attitude and stop being so resentful of something that ultimately, you have no right to be angry about!!

Unless you've been through infertility or pregnancy loss - you cannot imagine the thoughts that go through people's heads. They're often very unpalatable, very dark and bleak and they're very very very often only ones we even allow OURSELVES to acknowledge in the small hours of the morning when we're lying alone awake in the dark.

Infertility essentially robs you of the ability to find joy in those joyful human occasions - it makes pregnancy announcements, birth announcements, christenings, family gatherings the stuff to endure, an acting performance, something to get through the day making the right noises at the right times - and then you can quite often find yourselves going home and lying on your bed sobbing and screaming inside "Why can't it be me, why can't it be us, why can't my wonderful husband who would be an amazing father be one?" (It's even worse if you do my job and meet some shockingly bad examples of parenting and the most wonderful kids with the most horrific home lives)

People cope with it in different ways like I mentioned before - some (and I've got utter respect for them - they're stronger than I ever will be) can throw themselves into nieces and nephews and get comfort that way - but it still hurts and the tears still come at night; some hide away and try to avoid family gatherings and have to have meetings with young relatives forewarned to be able to deal with it mentally (I'm more that type) - but still it hurts and the tears still come at night; some find more empathy with the militant childfrees by choice movement - and I'll admit that, at times, when I'm being told that the childless should do all the !!!!!! shifts, should never be allowed choice of holiday, should never be allowed X/Y/Z - that I DO feel like them and doubly angry that we're cut OFF from society, and then futhermore that our wounds have acid of being the victims of "family friendly" policies thrown in there as well.

I'm a teacher, I'm an incredibly good one, people are shocked when they find out I don't have kids. Can you imagine the utter utter pain I feel when someone smugly sits and says that the childless shouldn't do my job? I wouldn't become better or worse if my uterus suddenly stopped screwing up, or my husband's sperm hadn't holed themselves up in my fallopian tubes reading a book and sleeping on the job - yet it's perfectly acceptable to make those kinds of assumptions. We've already had the starts of the selfish/selflessness argument on here - I predict about three more pages before the childless are painted as hedonistic holiday addicts - no chance - our holiday fund went on a house deposit and replacing a leaking window!

Yet we all probably think very bleak thoughts - and yes, there is an utter soul wrenching, searing jealousy of a pain you cannot begin to imagine when you actually sit down and consider the hand of cards that life dealt you - I cannot begin to imagine how hurtful it must be to know your partner has a child from a previous relationship and yet you cannot make him a father to you. I'll get flamed for this admission - my sister in law fell pregnant the same time as I did with the last miscarriage that wrecked my system completely - I have not yet seen my nephew, I cannot emotionally deal with that (I don't like my SIL anyway tbh) and I feel anger, jealousy and such utter rage at the percieved (key word here for those who'll skim read and jump in with both fists flaring) injustice of it all - that's the key reason I stay away - because I don't know if I could actually control myself from saying something (there are other issues regarding how she acts towards my husband but still). It's nowt to do with her rationally (although I do remain convinced she rushed to get pregnant after my miscarriages started for fear that her brother might manage to beat her to be first at something - she'd never deal with that lol) - but infertility makes you think some very very dark thoughts.

I won't see someone who's got the metaphorical balls to speak up and tell people exactly how awful it can feel shot down as nasty - we all know it's nasty, knowing it's nasty makes us feel even worse - and there's not much worse you can feel emotionally as a woman than knowing you can't make the next generation with you and your partner, that you can't fullfil the main biological reason you're on the planet, that you're essentially completely isolated from the vast majority of society - an unrepresented minority (didn't see any politicians courting the childless 30 somethings last election - they were all singing family friendly songs)... it's vile and, while I might silently wish plagues of headlice and worms on those who sit there and tell me I'll never be fulfilled as a person until I become a mother, or ask me why we haven't got a move on since they're onto number 2 now, or tell me that "you can always adopt" (round here - not unless you're mixed race or afro-carribean basically) - they're unspoken thoughts.

The poster you're attacking has every right to feel silently angry about the hand of cards life dealt them - we all do. It's what you do with them that counts.

And yes, I can read this thread without pain - because I know the arguments, I can almost predict the posters, I know the cliches that will be trotted out, the assumptions and judgements made - it's almost like a game of Infertility Bingo now.

By the way - in case I sound like I'm calm and well adjusted by it all - I ain't. I'm pushing another breakdown, I cry myself to sleep at night grieving over the life I'll never have, I'm angry and I'm a mess - yet to see me outwardly - you'd think I was the most accepting, calm, placid, loving person of them all. People hide things well - the infertile are better than most at living that double life (we're the ones off having a discreet sob in the loo after someone's brought their new arrival into work to show off, or conveniently having an armful of files so we don't have to "have a cuddle").

I've rambled a bit - trying to give some insight - but I doubt that I'll even make one lucky person stop and think for a second - I long since gave up that dellusion of having any effect. Just don't judge those who actually are confident enough to speak up and tell it how it feels.

Edited to add: So no, I think in fact it's one of the bravest things I've ever heard - someone admitting one of the very dark, bleak thoughts we all suffer as a consequence of fertility problems.

janninew

What a heartfelt and honest post dizziblonde. You have stopped and made me think what it must be like and the pain you have to deal with. This is the only post I've ever read on here that made me cry.

Lotus-eater

This is all very touching and lovely, but it doesn't exactly deal with what was being talked about here, or should be being talked about here, the OP's question.

Maybe we could get back to the main point, without having a whole argument about nothing to do with the OP's post.

esmerelda98

dizziblonde wrote: »

Unless you've been through infertility or pregnancy loss - you cannot imagine the thoughts that go through people's heads. They're often very unpalatable, very dark and bleak and they're very very very often only ones we even allow OURSELVES to acknowledge in the small hours of the morning when we're lying alone awake in the dark.

Infertility essentially robs you of the ability to find joy in those joyful human occasions - it makes pregnancy announcements, birth announcements, christenings, family gatherings the stuff to endure, an acting performance, something to get through the day making the right noises at the right times - and then you can quite often find yourselves going home and lying on your bed sobbing and screaming inside "Why can't it be me, why can't it be us, why can't my wonderful husband who would be an amazing father be one?" (It's even worse if you do my job and meet some shockingly bad examples of parenting and the most wonderful kids with the most horrific home lives)

People cope with it in different ways like I mentioned before - some (and I've got utter respect for them - they're stronger than I ever will be) can throw themselves into nieces and nephews and get comfort that way - but it still hurts and the tears still come at night; some hide away and try to avoid family gatherings and have to have meetings with young relatives forewarned to be able to deal with it mentally (I'm more that type) - but still it hurts and the tears still come at night; some find more empathy with the militant childfrees by choice movement - and I'll admit that, at times, when I'm being told that the childless should do all the !!!!!! shifts, should never be allowed choice of holiday, should never be allowed X/Y/Z - that I DO feel like them and doubly angry that we're cut OFF from society, and then futhermore that our wounds have acid of being the victims of "family friendly" policies thrown in there as well.

I'm a teacher, I'm an incredibly good one, people are shocked when they find out I don't have kids. Can you imagine the utter utter pain I feel when someone smugly sits and says that the childless shouldn't do my job? I wouldn't become better or worse if my uterus suddenly stopped screwing up, or my husband's sperm hadn't holed themselves up in my fallopian tubes reading a book and sleeping on the job - yet it's perfectly acceptable to make those kinds of assumptions. We've already had the starts of the selfish/selflessness argument on here - I predict about three more pages before the childless are painted as hedonistic holiday addicts - no chance - our holiday fund went on a house deposit and replacing a leaking window!

Yet we all probably think very bleak thoughts - and yes, there is an utter soul wrenching, searing jealousy of a pain you cannot begin to imagine when you actually sit down and consider the hand of cards that life dealt you - I cannot begin to imagine how hurtful it must be to know your partner has a child from a previous relationship and yet you cannot make him a father to you. I'll get flamed for this admission - my sister in law fell pregnant the same time as I did with the last miscarriage that wrecked my system completely - I have not yet seen my nephew, I cannot emotionally deal with that (I don't like my SIL anyway tbh) and I feel anger, jealousy and such utter rage at the percieved (key word here for those who'll skim read and jump in with both fists flaring) injustice of it all - that's the key reason I stay away - because I don't know if I could actually control myself from saying something (there are other issues regarding how she acts towards my husband but still). It's nowt to do with her rationally (although I do remain convinced she rushed to get pregnant after my miscarriages started for fear that her brother might manage to beat her to be first at something - she'd never deal with that lol) - but infertility makes you think some very very dark thoughts.

I won't see someone who's got the metaphorical balls to speak up and tell people exactly how awful it can feel shot down as nasty - we all know it's nasty, knowing it's nasty makes us feel even worse - and there's not much worse you can feel emotionally as a woman than knowing you can't make the next generation with you and your partner, that you can't fullfil the main biological reason you're on the planet, that you're essentially completely isolated from the vast majority of society - an unrepresented minority (didn't see any politicians courting the childless 30 somethings last election - they were all singing family friendly songs)... it's vile and, while I might silently wish plagues of headlice and worms on those who sit there and tell me I'll never be fulfilled as a person until I become a mother, or ask me why we haven't got a move on since they're onto number 2 now, or tell me that "you can always adopt" (round here - not unless you're mixed race or afro-carribean basically) - they're unspoken thoughts.

The poster you're attacking has every right to feel silently angry about the hand of cards life dealt them - we all do. It's what you do with them that counts.

And yes, I can read this thread without pain - because I know the arguments, I can almost predict the posters, I know the cliches that will be trotted out, the assumptions and judgements made - it's almost like a game of Infertility Bingo now.

By the way - in case I sound like I'm calm and well adjusted by it all - I ain't. I'm pushing another breakdown, I cry myself to sleep at night grieving over the life I'll never have, I'm angry and I'm a mess - yet to see me outwardly - you'd think I was the most accepting, calm, placid, loving person of them all. People hide things well - the infertile are better than most at living that double life (we're the ones off having a discreet sob in the loo after someone's brought their new arrival into work to show off, or conveniently having an armful of files so we don't have to "have a cuddle").

I've rambled a bit - trying to give some insight - but I doubt that I'll even make one lucky person stop and think for a second - I long since gave up that dellusion of having any effect. Just don't judge those who actually are confident enough to speak up and tell it how it feels.

Edited to add: So no, I think in fact it's one of the bravest things I've ever heard - someone admitting one of the very dark, bleak thoughts we all suffer as a consequence of fertility problems.

dizziblonde, your pain is almost palpable, and I am sad to see another human being going through this. I do not wish to add to your pain, so please do not read my post in that way. The thread was never meant to be a discussion about having children versus not having children and I don't think it has developed in that way. Only people who have experienced infertility can understand what you are going through, but some of the emotions you feel are felt more widely. Here you are empathising with a woman who does have a child, but who is resentful of her partner's refusal to have another one. There seems to be common ground in finding oneself in a situation over which you have no control. Maybe there have been cliches expressed, but what has come across to me is the importance people attach to having children, whether people do have children or not. Not everyone responding saying they would want to have more than one child has a child and I'm sure all posters are grateful to have even one child. The hurtful comments that have been expressed to you about about not being fulfilled etc. are a totally different discussion. Some people can be cruel without meaning to and all of us are guilty of being thoughtless sometimes. You have certainly given us an insight into the pain of infertility and it will hopefully help us all approach the issue more sensitively.

esmerelda98

lostinrates wrote: »

If I understand Jewel correctly she is not referring to a conscious emotion of selfishness but rather the biological urge to reproduce. Most people who study biology or animal sciences or anthropoly come across this concept at some point...and looked at also in terms of ''altruism''....e.g. in a famine situation why people keep having children - when -in a real not imagined situation- will a mother save herself rather than a child and vice/versa and why the urge to reproduce is strong. I do not believe it to be a personal attack on anyone's choices or decisions or personalities, but rather a look at the ''biological'' rather than ''human/consious'' action of having families.

I didn't actually understand this post, but OrkneyStar's post has explained it to me a bit. That's something new I've learnt today.

MoneySavingMamma

I was an only child for over 10yrs, then got siblings when parents remarried. I was desperate for them! It was so boring in evenings & at family events (no cousins either )
I'm expecting no2 now, because I was getting broody & for my son. There will be 6yrs gap, which I think is too much.
I didn't NEED a baby right now, life would be easier if I waited, but the age gap was nagging me & I knew putting it off would keep happening & then it wouldn't happen at all. This I knew I would regret further down the line.
Sometimes you have to make big decisions & go for it! You will carry it, you will do the majority of the work, also you would get more tax credits & save on childcare for DS as at home anyway?

Not a nice thing to say, but women have a expiry date for getting pregnant, men don't. He could change his mind way down the line, but when you try it's too late, or worse, if your relationship doesn't work out & then you have a relationship where you both want one, again it could be too late.

mrcow

OrkneyStar wrote: »

When I think about selfish reasons for reproduction I think of the 'selfish gene' sort of analogy, in that there is an inate 'thing' (force) within many of us which will make us want to reproduce, the selfish simply referring to the propagation of further copies of the 'self' genes in the progeny (child). I suppose this is also described as biological 'desire' to have children.

Sorry to be a pedant here, but you are taking Dawkin's idea of the Selfish Gene out of context and are misrepresenting it somewhat.

lostinrates

mrcow wrote: »

Sorry to be a pedant here, but you are taking Dawkin's idea of the Selfish Gene out of context and are misrepresenting it somewhat.

yes. ''The selfish gene'' is a different concept.

redhead122

Speaking from my personal situation, I knew from an early age that I wanted at least 2 children, I have an older brother, and my OH has a younger sister, I also had lots of cousins and close family friends, I have 2 nieces and a nephew and love being an aunt, In the last few years v close friends had babies and everyone commented what great parents me and OH would make.

2 just felt like the right number to us, and OH and I agreed that would make our family complete. We discussed long and hard our opinions on marriage and family and we luckily agreed

After a painful pregnancy, and difficult birth, in Jan 2011 our beautiful dd arrives. We settle into family life and I feel like I should have done this years ago and love being a mother.
At 3 weeks old we get the news that our beautiful baby girl has an inherited life threatening condition, as you can imagine our world falls apart.
I blame myself that I wanted this child so much and I've given her this horrible disease, of which there is no cure, telling immediate family is heart braking, and our life is now full of hospital appointments and further tests.
Cue 7 months later and she is thriving, and putting on weight and exceeding the doctors expectations, which I am beyond grateful for, and her illness is just part of everyday life.

But deep down inside I am desperate for another baby as I wanted them close together, but our next baby has a 1 in 4 chance of the same horrible illness, OH and I have talked that we could go down the Pre Genetic Diagnosis route to have an embryo screened, but there are financial costs involved, we can take a chance, conceive a baby, have amnio tests and hope our baby is healthy or have 2 children with this disease, or we decide to wait and see how dd is in a few years, and make a decision, but i'm 30 already and don't want to wait, but how would we cope if dd is in hosp and we have another child to care for, or would dd benefit from having a sibling, but how would we cope if they're both very sick.

It is so hard when you see healthy babies all around and I am jealous, but I know just how lucky we are to have our wonderful and beautiful dd.
But I can't explain it, call me selfish, but I always imagined having 2 children, Life is so cruel.

I wish you luck in whatever you choose to do

BWZN93

dizziblonde wrote: »

Unless you've been through infertility or pregnancy loss - you cannot imagine the thoughts that go through people's heads. They're often very unpalatable, very dark and bleak and they're very very very often only ones we even allow OURSELVES to acknowledge in the small hours of the morning when we're lying alone awake in the dark.

Infertility essentially robs you of the ability to find joy in those joyful human occasions - it makes pregnancy announcements, birth announcements, christenings, family gatherings the stuff to endure, an acting performance, something to get through the day making the right noises at the right times - and then you can quite often find yourselves going home and lying on your bed sobbing and screaming inside "Why can't it be me, why can't it be us, why can't my wonderful husband who would be an amazing father be one?" (It's even worse if you do my job and meet some shockingly bad examples of parenting and the most wonderful kids with the most horrific home lives)

People cope with it in different ways like I mentioned before - some (and I've got utter respect for them - they're stronger than I ever will be) can throw themselves into nieces and nephews and get comfort that way - but it still hurts and the tears still come at night; some hide away and try to avoid family gatherings and have to have meetings with young relatives forewarned to be able to deal with it mentally (I'm more that type) - but still it hurts and the tears still come at night; some find more empathy with the militant childfrees by choice movement - and I'll admit that, at times, when I'm being told that the childless should do all the !!!!!! shifts, should never be allowed choice of holiday, should never be allowed X/Y/Z - that I DO feel like them and doubly angry that we're cut OFF from society, and then futhermore that our wounds have acid of being the victims of "family friendly" policies thrown in there as well.

I'm a teacher, I'm an incredibly good one, people are shocked when they find out I don't have kids. Can you imagine the utter utter pain I feel when someone smugly sits and says that the childless shouldn't do my job? I wouldn't become better or worse if my uterus suddenly stopped screwing up, or my husband's sperm hadn't holed themselves up in my fallopian tubes reading a book and sleeping on the job - yet it's perfectly acceptable to make those kinds of assumptions. We've already had the starts of the selfish/selflessness argument on here - I predict about three more pages before the childless are painted as hedonistic holiday addicts - no chance - our holiday fund went on a house deposit and replacing a leaking window!

Yet we all probably think very bleak thoughts - and yes, there is an utter soul wrenching, searing jealousy of a pain you cannot begin to imagine when you actually sit down and consider the hand of cards that life dealt you - I cannot begin to imagine how hurtful it must be to know your partner has a child from a previous relationship and yet you cannot make him a father to you. I'll get flamed for this admission - my sister in law fell pregnant the same time as I did with the last miscarriage that wrecked my system completely - I have not yet seen my nephew, I cannot emotionally deal with that (I don't like my SIL anyway tbh) and I feel anger, jealousy and such utter rage at the percieved (key word here for those who'll skim read and jump in with both fists flaring) injustice of it all - that's the key reason I stay away - because I don't know if I could actually control myself from saying something (there are other issues regarding how she acts towards my husband but still). It's nowt to do with her rationally (although I do remain convinced she rushed to get pregnant after my miscarriages started for fear that her brother might manage to beat her to be first at something - she'd never deal with that lol) - but infertility makes you think some very very dark thoughts.

I won't see someone who's got the metaphorical balls to speak up and tell people exactly how awful it can feel shot down as nasty - we all know it's nasty, knowing it's nasty makes us feel even worse - and there's not much worse you can feel emotionally as a woman than knowing you can't make the next generation with you and your partner, that you can't fullfil the main biological reason you're on the planet, that you're essentially completely isolated from the vast majority of society - an unrepresented minority (didn't see any politicians courting the childless 30 somethings last election - they were all singing family friendly songs)... it's vile and, while I might silently wish plagues of headlice and worms on those who sit there and tell me I'll never be fulfilled as a person until I become a mother, or ask me why we haven't got a move on since they're onto number 2 now, or tell me that "you can always adopt" (round here - not unless you're mixed race or afro-carribean basically) - they're unspoken thoughts.

The poster you're attacking has every right to feel silently angry about the hand of cards life dealt them - we all do. It's what you do with them that counts.

And yes, I can read this thread without pain - because I know the arguments, I can almost predict the posters, I know the cliches that will be trotted out, the assumptions and judgements made - it's almost like a game of Infertility Bingo now.

By the way - in case I sound like I'm calm and well adjusted by it all - I ain't. I'm pushing another breakdown, I cry myself to sleep at night grieving over the life I'll never have, I'm angry and I'm a mess - yet to see me outwardly - you'd think I was the most accepting, calm, placid, loving person of them all. People hide things well - the infertile are better than most at living that double life (we're the ones off having a discreet sob in the loo after someone's brought their new arrival into work to show off, or conveniently having an armful of files so we don't have to "have a cuddle").

I've rambled a bit - trying to give some insight - but I doubt that I'll even make one lucky person stop and think for a second - I long since gave up that dellusion of having any effect. Just don't judge those who actually are confident enough to speak up and tell it how it feels.

Edited to add: So no, I think in fact it's one of the bravest things I've ever heard - someone admitting one of the very dark, bleak thoughts we all suffer as a consequence of fertility problems.

I really hope that what i'm about to say does not come across as rude - but to be honest, you are already preaching to the converted. I know EXACTLY the feelings you describe in detail, whilst I don't work with children, I do come across as one of the most placid and easy going people in the world when dealing with my situation.

Maybe I should have been clearer in an earlier post, the one which stated that I don't have children because I've been too busy with my career and I'm not currently with anyone, and that I've been thinking of going it alone. That is the truth as it stands right now this second yes, but the reality is that I spent 4 YEARS trying to get pregnant, it never happened, we broke up and I decided to re-focus on my career instead. As I am also still very single, its not exactly like I'm in a position to keep trying to get pregnant. If I do meet someone, its entirely likely I will spend another few years trying, until eventually I have to accept it and give up. Either that, or I start to look at my own options now, on my own, with no one to support me. Put it this way, my chances at ever being a mother, are slim to none.

So if you still think its completely ok for a woman who has a child to be angry that her OH has a child from a previous relationship, you go right ahead and think that. No one is denying you that right. But for what its worth, my position is that it is not ok, yes, feel anger at the fact that she cant have a child with her partner for whatever reason, but anger at the child for its very existence?? It suggests to me that there are other psychological issues here that are probably better being explored in therapy, not accepted as though it is normal.

One final point, yes, I have on many an occasion been awake in the middle of the night wondering how the hell my life turned out this way, how come its so easy for everyone else, and what the hell do I do next because, quite simply, there are pretty much no options for me. However, if I were to meet a guy who had kids already, you damn right I wouldn't feel anger towards them. You know what, I'd feel bloody glad - because then maybe my own problem wouldn't be so much of an issue for him and maybe I wouldn't be such an unattractive proposition.

And with that, ill get off my box.