New Washing Machine/Concept: ISE CI555WH

E2R

I phoned a large ISE dealer in London and asked for prices then asked why everyone who supplies ISE products offer the same price and cannot discount? The supplier said that ISE have set a price for each product that cannot be discounted under any circumstances. When I then asked if this was legal under European pricing legislation all went quite then he gave me the phone number of ISE head office. Instead I contacted Trading Standards who are looking into it and will get back to me within 5 working days!?

I'll keep you informed.

kwatt

I'll happily answer any questions that you have.

E2R, there is no fixed pricing at all as that is illegal, you are quite correct on that point and there is no policy whereby dealers have to sell at a set price and they do in fact range in price. What the dealers choose to sell for is entirely up to them, ISE cannot control that, just as ISE cannot control what a dealer says to anyone.

I know an ISE dealer close to me that sells ISE10 for £999! I'm sure there's one near Nottingham that sells for £779. It's not controlled in any way. There is an SRP (Suggested Retail Price) but that's all there is and it is most certainly not enforced.

What ISE don't do is discount the trade pricing so that large retailers and small retailers have a level playing field. This is perfectly legal and in fact a very common practice so, if a dealer offers a lower price, then they are cutting their own margins only. But you have to remember that these guys aren't exactly making a fortune from selling machines, many people think that there's huge margins in appliances, trust me, there's not as it is hugely competitive.

Totalsolutions, would that be a discounted Candy or Hoover (same thing, different badge) with it's sealed tank and moulded pressure chamber, that blocks? We're writing them off at eighteen months old as uneconomical to repair!

Miele, among others but they are the most notorious for it, have a totally closed shop policy on spares and service information. What this means that, in the event of any failure you have no option but to call Miele and you are forced to pay whatever they demand. There is no way even the trade can access and service a modern Miele machine as they have to be reset using a Miele laptop with Miele service software on it which is not available to anyone else.

There have been issues reported with the weighing system that they use as it overrides what you want to do. For example, if you try to wash hand or delicate bedsheets the machine won't allow it as it exceeds the weight limit.

I've also had reports that the Honeycomb drum isn't that brilliant. Again, as an example, let's say you wash trousers you were out cutting the grass in, half the grass is left in the drum as the holes are too small to allow it to escape and there's too few of them. This happens with other things as well.

Then we have the 2+ hour wash times for a cotton 40˚C and the flight deck of a space shuttle to control it making life complex.

There's no doubt that they are well built machines, absolutely no argument about that, but they are not without their downsides.

But maintenance costs is one of the largest reasons that a lot of light commercial use clients choose ISE10 over Miele. Oh and the fact that ISE give a three year AXA underwritten warranty in commercial premises whereas with a Miele commercial at about £1200 plus VAT you get one year and on a domestic, six months. Of course for normal domestic use that becomes ten years.

It's really up to people to make their own minds up on what they want and need but it's far better to know a lot of this stuff up front IMO.

K.

basmic

Good post kwatt, I was very interested in what you had to say about Miele machine, as I was under the impresssion they were the Rolls Royce of washing machines.

I have the Bosch WAS32466GB, which has a SoftSurge drum system. You've probably seen the machine already, but I've noticed that the holes do seem small - as a result, sometimes blades of grass can be found lurking for the next wash.

As for wash times, well it's about 1:20 for a 40c cottons wash cycle. Not bad, compared to my old Hotpoint WMA48.

I like my Bosch, but I feel the pump is it's downfall. Fair enough, it's reliable - but it's probably noiser than the motor sometimes!! Not to mention sometimes the pump door sometimes rattles.

kwatt

Thanks basmic.

Yeah the SoftSurge was along the same lines from memory but Miele reduce the number of holes even more. It's effective enough an idea until you get the likes of the example given then it falls over. It's one of those things that on paper seems a brilliant idea and, to be fair it's not a bad one but, in practice, becomes a pain at times.

An hour twenty is good for a Bosch.

Noise is a totally subjective thing and pump noise is really hard to mask as, if you want to make the filter accessible for people to clear themselves, you can't hide it behind sound deadening. Hide it and people can't clear it. You can't win sometimes and just have to live with the compromise you choose. Personally I'd much rather people were able to do as much as they can themselves but to add things like removable paddles, easily accessible filters, an emergency drain down point and emergency door releases all adds to the cost upfront. The good thing about having all that where you can is that you can solve a lot of problems on the phone with just a little advice instead of having to call out.

Believe it or not the engineers, myself included, despise having to charge people for stupid faults that are easily cleared by people themselves. It's embarrassing for any of the good repairers to do so, £50 to clear a pump of coins or reset an oven timer just isn't right and many of us think, unfair.

It's all these things that people forget when they look at appliances as usually it's a distress purchase. Get one as quick as possible at what seems the best possible price and that's about as far as most people research them as they think that, beyond that, they're all the same.

Cars are all the same too. They have four wheels and get you from A to B.

Aren't they?

K.

E2R

Many thanks Kwatt for your input. I now realise I'm not being ripped off and will go ahead. I intend to purchase:
ISE1606W-ISE10 washing machine which includes a 10 year AXA warranty
ISECD60W-ISE10 condenser tumble dryer which includes a 10 AXA year warranty
ISE5-DW1 Dishwasher which includes a 5 year AXA warranty

Can you supply?

kwatt

I don't supply per-say but I can influence a little as I specified the machine.

I do know that for a multi-appliance purchase that there are discounts available which are also available to the dealers. From memory there's a £50 discount on a washer and dryer bought together and I do know that there was a little more when there were three appliances or more bought on one delivery. It's pretty simple really, as there are more than one appliance on any one delivery the cost of transport drops and that's passed on, it's no great secret how it works it's just simple logistics.

What I don't know is how that would work out against the local dealer's pricing in all honesty.

Best bet is to drop a line to admin@iseappliances.co.uk and ask, the admin there is pretty good and I know that they will do what they can for you.

The 10 is a cracking machine IMO that just trundles on and on, built by Asko in Sweden who I've dealt with for 20+ years, I still rate them above all else two decades later. I still have customers coming back after two decades wanting another one as well. They're tough, easy to use and just do the job as well as being really economical to maintain if they ever need it but, not many ever do.

It's one of those things where it's good and bad, I've delivered and installed more than a few of these machines in my day and we put them in then never hear from people again. That's good that people don't have problems but when we do hear from them again it is years later and people that have them don't want to part with them.

The door takes a bit of getting used to, especially when new as they need a bit of a shove to close as they're tight when new but after that and, you get used to it, they're an absolute joy to use. Simple, unfussy and uncomplicated, they just do the job.

I'm still trying to wangle a dryer though. However, the stopgap White Knight is on it's last legs now methinks so it's bound to happen soon. I keep hearing the slight bearing squeal and my better half is on about fixing it but the thought of taking one of them apart to replace bearings is just not appealing to me I have to say. The belts are a swine to get on.

The last thing I want to be doing of an evening is the day job.

Apologies if I prattled on a bit but I live and breath this stuff.

K.

Broadsword

I was recently looking for a washing machine and was convinced that longevity is the answer. Even though overall costs per year may be similar it is certainly best to avoid all the hassle that repairs/replacement causes, always, it seems, at the most inconvenient time. To reassure E2R my research suggests that for a comparable spec, the ISE range is cheaper than Miele whether or not you get a discount. My choice narrowed to the Miele and ISE10. I was convinced of the ethic behind the ISE, and the passion and commitment of those involved, such as kwatt, should be applauded. However ISE's network through independent engineers is both its strength and its weakness. I was persuaded that low cost repairs (in ten year's time?) was a merit and accept that the Miele will not be cheap to repair. However whether this low cost model is sustainable over the long term remains to be seen and there could be no guarantee on pricing so far ahead, no matter how commendable the aspiration..

However I could overcome these doubts, and assume reliability (even though there appears to be no independent evidence of that) and that spares would be cheap, available when I want them and with a local repairer committed to these machines. The real barrier, for me, was no ISE10 machines were available to buy. Washing machines are very much a distress purchase, so it is worrying that there was no stock. The independents who sell these are relatively few, and far apart (see the web site), compared with the mature distribution network of most manufacturers. Despite engaging ISE's advice (through the UK whitegoods forum), the independent they put me on to did not cover my area (with a catchment area in excess of 250000). The independent I found, was willing to supply, but it was out of his area, and of course he had no stock until the next shipment arrives. This worried me that it may not be too easy to find an engineer (despite assurances that there are lots of engineers) when the time comes and if the machines are out of stock, will the spares be in stock? ISE can supply appliances by on line order but it is not clear where the support comes from to install and repair particularly as I had to trawl around to find a willing partner in this enterprise.

I had to order the Miele (a 3922 from the Co-Op). It arrived in two days, on a Saturday and I was able to choose the date as I ordered. They have been acknowledged independently for reliability and purchasers appear to recommend them to others. I have had to accept that their nationwide network infrastructure costs money and I shall have to pay for that when the time comes. But this does give me more security than a low cost voluntary (that is independent) model for ongoing support. Had the ISE been in stock I would have ordered but purchasers should be aware that the ISE network is less robust (in my opinion) because it is independent in its nature. With the enthusiasm of those involved the logistics and supply may well improve, but of course I could not wait with an ailing machine. In fairness to ISE the other manufacturers have, in the main, had decades to build both their supply chain and business model and these things take time to mature.

Meanwhile, although this may sound negative it is not intended to be, and I have suggested ISE to a forum member who asks which dishwasher to buy. Nevertheless like most choices, there are pros and cons, and given sufficient time, it is best to compare many factors particularly if you are considering a purchase which is intended to last 10-20 years. I shall revisit this when my dishwasher gives up and I hope by then, ISE have a ten year version !

E2R

Thanks again Kwatt I will contact ISE as you suggest. I have been advised that all items will be available ex-stock by the time they receive the order.

redmist1950

kwatt wrote: »

I'll happily answer any questions that you have.

But maintenance costs is one of the largest reasons that a lot of light commercial use

K.

Only just found this thread Re ISE
Can you tell me if spare parts are available to end-consumers out of warrantee?
and if so were from
Thanks
Mike

kwatt

Yes, spares are available in fact some retailers have already started listing some of them for the first machine even although none are out of warranty yet. Any spares can be gotten from any of the sellers as well as from UK Whitegoods, I know that as we have them on the shelf.

I think, from memory, all the fault codes are listed in the manuals and their meanings as well, they certainly are on ISE10. Under the lid of the ISE10's you'll also find a wiring schematic and, you don't need a laptop to reset it or any specialist tools beyond the obligatory Torx bits unless you ever have to realign the drum.

HTH

K.