Employer went into my account to 'reclaim' overpayment

Naf

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Expert liars generally construct falsehoods out of real facts.

Now, it is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth if you want to measure up. As far as I can see, you don't measure up. While you may not have told a single untruth, the whole truth has not been there from the start. It has had to be prised from you.

The cycle to work loan is a big issue. As a loan, it seems to me that it may well fall under set off rules. But I am not bothering myself to get my head around it for you.

Please appreciate that if you tailor the presentation of your case here to get the answer you hope for, it is a total waste of your time and everyone else's, because the advice is only relevant to your presentation of the facts - and not to the facts that will actually determine your case.

I gave the facts I thought were relevant: the bike loan was relevant to the fact my final wage should have been reduced down to zero, but my question wasn't regarding that as I already knew it was perfectly possible for this to be done. All I wanted to know to start with was if they're legally allowed to enter my account because they made an error on their end, especially without contacting me beforehand. Really in my original post I gave a lot more info than I thought was really relevant, because I knew it'd be asked for; the bike loan never even occurred to me.

yvonne13_2

Hold Up, I thought they had to contact you first to let you know about the incorrect payment and give you a chance to pay it back. It would be obvious you would have mistaken it for a final salary therefore it's clear you would have spent it when they dipped into your account to grab it back.
They have caused you to be withdraw and the cheeky getts will be making money of you by charging you overdraft fees.

Word to the wise, if you ever have to open a bank account that your work place encourages or says you have to open an account with them please once the money hits the account get the money transferred into another one, therefore they will have to follow the correct procedure in claiming overpaid monies back.

Naf

yvonne13 wrote: »

Word to the wise, if you ever have to open a bank account that your work place encourages or says you have to open an account with them please once the money hits the account get the money transferred into another one, therefore they will have to follow the correct procedure in claiming overpaid monies back.

Given they took it anyway and left the account £675 overdrawn, it wouldn't have made any difference either way :mad:

yvonne13_2

Sorry I must have misunderstood, was you in the red already?

By they way if it is not in an account that they don't control they cannot dip they have to consider your circumstances and I have know people to claim poverty and only able to pay back a set amount of money a week or month and they have to take that on board. Why don't you go to the CAB?

Naf

This is what I've just responded to HR:

naf_HR_letter wrote:

Dear Ms Worthington, I thank you for your response, however it is far from satisfactory. A number of things you said do not ring true; in addition you seem to be making some rather unfair accusations against me, whilst it is your department who have made the error in the first place.
As previously stated, I now understand exactly how the situation with my wages should have happened; however I do not understand how it went wrong. For two years I have not had any problems with any of my salary payments; they have been paid on time, for the correct amounts, even my tax appears to have been managed correctly. However, just this once my wages went completely wrong; seems odd to start with. I did receive a payslip breakdown of what had been done to get to the £808.50 figure I was paid and was extremely confused as to where the figure for my Bikes4Work payment had come from in the first place; given I only took a certificate for £700, where does £751.05 come from? This error ought to have been spotted before my salary was processed to my account, particularly given that payslip details are available on the intranet system by the 15th, the details of individuals pay must be worked out even further in advance than that.

In suggesting that I ought to have contacted you regarding the amount, you seem to be suggesting that I am supposed to assume, against 24 months evidence to the contrary, that your department are incapable of doing their jobs (not an altogether unfounded assumption from my viewpoint right now), as opposed to thinking that the department are staffed with well trained, professional people who are more than capable of getting simple things like arithmetic correct. Given the fact I had not had (nor had I hear that any of my colleagues had) any problems with their wages in the past, I do not think it unreasonable to think your department can, in fact, do their job just fine, and that my final wage had been worked out correctly. In addition I contest that if you think I should have called you, I equally think you should have called me. In light of my previous point, I had no reason to think it would have been done wrong and therefore had no feeling I ought to check. You, on the other hand, should have realised that I wouldn't necessarily know this was a mistake and should have contacted me to discuss what was going to happen about it; out of courtesy if nothing else. This is the first job I have had where any portion of wage was paid in advance. I had never realised this fact, and had always thought that the money paid on the 19th each time was either money for the full previous calendar month (a cut off of roughly two weeks prior to payday is what I am accustomed to), or that it was paid from 19th to 19th. The idea that anything was paid in advance is something that would not have occurred to me. Not only this, but I commenced employment with an 'on spec' contract, meaning I had no set hours of work, and was hourly paid – all of my wages were paid in arrears.
I notice that you appear to be confused by the fact the money was spent from my account so quickly. I must say, the speed with which it was spent is not particularly relevant; especially as I did not simply go ahead and spend or withdraw the whole lot; as someone who was attempting to 'cash in' on a known error would have. I paid out on perfectly reasonable things that simply wouldn't have been paid for had I been paid correctly (i.e. not at all). The payday loan would not have been paid off, rather extended a further month; I would not have been able to spend money on decorations for my son's upcoming 1st Birthday; I would not have purchased as much convenience food and more expensive extras and treats, rather stuck to the basics. I therefore would not have exceeded my overdraft limit, as you suggested I would have, and so you can still be held liable for the “adverse consequences” that are affecting me as, clearly, I can “fully account” for where this money has been spent. The fact I spent some of the money quickly, but did not spend or remove the whole amount does indicate that I was unaware that it was an error, rather believed it was my final payment.
My query anyway, regards your entry into my account to take funds that were not there. Firstly you mention the right of an employer under “common law” to recover overpayments made to its employees. This right refers to being able to make deductions (subject to various conditions) from wage payments; the law does not give an employer any right whatsoever to take money from an employee's personal bank account (except where said employee is also a customer; but this would be a direct debit and a completely separate item). You go on to mention your right of “set off” against employee accounts. Once again, as a Santander customer, the bank has the right to move money between my accounts to cover missed payments and overdue sums where I have a debt account, but the right to set off money in my current account against a salary overpayment is not included in this; it would have to be specified within the terms of employment. You claim it is, but I beg to differ as you sent me the most up-to-date version just last week, and there is no mention of any provision to take funds from my accounts.. In addition, to be able to set off funds, they need to be available; which £675 of the amount you took was not.
In light of the above, I believe you have acted outside of your legal rights. Whilst me asking for any of this money back would not really help either of us, I do believe you could be somewhat more flexible given that your mistake is what set of this entire situation. I have made an 'agreement' with the collections department (had I not, I would have been unable to pay my rent or buy any food for my family for at least two weeks), but it is extremely unlikely I will be able to keep to even this, and will certainly have nothing over and above to offer towards the Bikes4Work balance. Given my circumstances I would be able to offer £60 per month, split as you and collections agree, between the two accounts. Once I have found new employment I would intend to increase this to £80 or even £100 per month. Given the circumstances on both sides, I believe this to be perfectly reasonable.

yvonne13_2

Sorry I must have misunderstood, was you in the red already?

By they way if it is not in an account that they don't control they cannot dip they have to consider your circumstances and I have know people to claim poverty and only able to pay back a set amount of money a week or month and they have to take that on board. Why don't you go to the CAB?

mariefab

About 10 years ago my daughter received a letter from her bank informing her that she had overdrawn on her account and they were charging her £25.
What had happened was...
She had recently left a part time catering job that paid by BACS on the last friday of each month.
She was expecting a full months pay including her worked notice and untaken holidays.
On the last pay date she went to the bank and withdrew a couple of hundred pounds at the cash desk.

*However, unknown to her or the bank cashier at the time, her former employer's payroll department had recalled the BACS wages payment at the end of the day it was inputted because they belatedly realised that she had left the job and so they decided that they'd recalculate the wages due and process it in the following payroll cycle.

So, my daughter went to her bank with the overdrawn letter to find out was was going on. The advisor explained that BACS payments operate on a 3 day cycle; Day 1 inputting, Day 2 processing and Day 3 entering and that payments made in error can be recalled up to Day 2 and this is what had happened in her case. (The BACS payment showed in her account in the morning when she withdrew the cash but was removed by the recall in the afternoon.) She called the payroll department from the bank and they explained as * above and her bank, as a goodwill gesture, agreed to waive any charges made on her account until the next payroll cycle put things right.

Mistral001

Mariefab

Good explanation of the way BACS works.

I did not know that it worked in that three-day cycle. Day two seems to be the critical day. Thus if you receive a final wages payment it is always a good idea to wait at least two days or maybe three days to be on the safe side before withdrawing it. Further to that, you will have to check that there are no DD's coming out within that two to three day period

There have been several posts recently on this topic. The clawback system seems totally crazy. Looks like it has been set up as a convenience between busnesses and the banks with little regard to the personal bank account holder.

I have been an employer in the past, and I am not so sure that I would want such a system in place if it could result in this sort of think happening to my employees or even ex-employees. The employers have to take part of the blame for it as they could just refuse to participate in it and not take back the money in this way.

Naf

Well, persistence pays off: payroll have agreed to defer payments on the Bikes4Work 'loan' for up to 6 months so I should be able to manage.
Thanks for the help and advice.