Employer went into my account to 'reclaim' overpayment

Naf

Jariya wrote: »

Then this part of your long response to mine on page three doesn't make sense.

Scenario A they paid you the 751.05 in error and it was paid back - but now they have to legally ensure their records are straight.
Scenario 2 they didn't pay you this in error and are now getting thieir records straight but should not have paid you this element at all and shoudl have stopped this between payslip and payroll.

It's unclear from your posts whether you were paid this as part of the figure in an earlier salary and whether it was paid back or not.

In May I joined Bikes4Work. For this I never received any extra money in any wage, only a certificate that the shop deal with that got me £700 worth of kit. Every wage slip I had up till now has been correct. The £751.05 was never paid to me earlier, the figure has no relation to me whatsoever. It has just appeared out of nowhere and has been added to my wage in the same place that a totally different figure ought to have been deducted.

getmore4less

Naf wrote: »

Nope, the £751.05 is a figure that has absolutely nothing to do with me, I haven't a clue where they got it from. The remaining bike loan is around £400, slightly less.

How can it be,

You had previously entered into a ‘cycle to work’ scheme and applied for a loan of £700.00 in May 2011, with the first of 12 repayments commencing in June 2011.

that's one payment of 12 that makes it £700 - £58.33.

if they had allready taken £300+ in one month how did you live you were allready struggling with Paydays and would have been 1/3 down in June.

Naf

SarEl wrote:

just to make this easy - and several pages of this thread redundant - the deduction is both lawful and not in common law, but in statute. The ERA 1996 section 14 permits deductions from wages where that payment has resulted from an overpayment (including an error on the part of the employer), and does not require prior agreement of the employee, nor prior notification to the employee. For the purposes of the law, "wage" applies to any payment made to an employee in respect of and arising out of their employment for these purposes. The payment was made in respect of your employment and terms that you had agreed, albeit in error, so the employer was entitled to claim it back. Therefore no question exists in law.

That takes you back to the first page - the only issue that remains is whether the bank broke banking regulations in taking money out of your account without your permission / notification in advance. If they did not, then the charges incurred as a result of your overdraft become your responsibility, and they have no responsibility to make reparations. So it may be advisable to ask that question on the relevant board where you are more likely to get someone with an authoritative view on the matter who can tell you what, if any, regulations have been breached. It might also be worthwhile making sure that you fully explain the circumstances from the outset too - dropping in the rather relevant fact that you had left without giving notice only after four pages of people trying to help you out is not really "playing the game".

It would help if you had actually read the thread before trying to summarise and solve it all at once. I've never argued with the deduction, once they explained the situation I have no argument that I was not due the money, and they are entitled to reclaim it. What they are not entitled to do (not in any term or condition I have found) is just delve into my account and take it like this, particularly without contacting me first. That is the only issue here, the unlawful access of my personal account.

Naf

getmore4less wrote: »

How can it be,

You had previously entered into a ‘cycle to work’ scheme and applied for a loan of £700.00 in May 2011, with the first of 12 repayments commencing in June 2011.

£hat's one payment of 12 that makes it £700 - £58.33.

if they had allready taken £300+ in one month how did you live you were allready struggling with Paydays and would have been 1/3 down in June.

I'm only going by what payroll have now told me. This month's salary was jus over £150 before deductions. A normal £58 payment was taken for Bikes4Work (leaving it's outstanding at just less than £590ish), but I somehow have a £100 tax refund. So before the Bikes4Work full repayment my wage was around £190. £590-£190=£400.

SarEl

Naf wrote: »

It would help if you had actually read the thread before trying to summarise and solve it all at once. I've never argued with the deduction, once they explained the situation I have no argument that I was not due the money, and they are entitled to reclaim it. What they are not entitled to do (not in any term or condition I have found) is just delve into my account and take it like this, particularly without contacting me first. That is the only issue here, the unlawful access of my personal account.

Wow - this was somewhat unwarranted. I read the thread thank you very much, and since you began with
"I contacted ACAS and they say that usually employers wouldn't be allowed; deductions can be made from future pay if they need to reclaim an overpayment, however to check my contract. I have received the most up to date terms of employment from them in the post, and I can't find any provision to delve into my private account (whether held with them or not) and steal from me (before you say anything, I know it's not theft really)."
and several subsequent posts from you and others went on to discuss whether there was an issue in employment law - because not many people actually ring ACAS about banking regulations - then I have explained the employment law position. I did not suggest that you disagreed with the fact that you owed the money - what I said is that employment law does not support your position that so you should really ask the right people for advice. And you seem very insistant that the employer/bank has acted unlawfully in what they did, but very resistant to asking the right people who might know more about this than anyone on this board whether they have in fact done so.

But the fact that you left without giving notice and knowing that you owed your employer money having just taken out a loan from them is very relevant to your employers position because the right to reclaim that money originates in employment law, not banking regulations, since the overpayment was a payroll error - that only leaves the banking regulations to fall back on, as I said.

getmore4less

Naf wrote: »

I'm only going by what payroll have now told me. This month's salary was jus over £150 before deductions. A normal £58 payment was taken for Bikes4Work (leaving it's outstanding at just less than £590ish), but I somehow have a £100 tax refund. So before the Bikes4Work full repayment my wage was around £190. £590-£190=£400.

LIke getting blood out of stone still don't add up but you have continuly failed to provide all the relevent information no wonder your finances are in such a mess you don't seem to have a clue about any of it and the "I though it was my money" is looking more and more like a convenience given you knew you owed the bike loan.


Anyway I give up after one final point which needs to be remade since you conveneintly ignored it before.

All your santander accounts will most probably have offsetting for ANY debt to santander, other accounts,CC, loans etc or debt resulting from employment.

NO need for them to be in the employment particulars.

Best you go away and check those T&C's

Naf

SarEl wrote: »

Wow - this was somewhat unwarranted. I read the thread thank you very much, and since you began with
"I contacted ACAS and they say that usually employers wouldn't be allowed; deductions can be made from future pay if they need to reclaim an overpayment, however to check my contract. I have received the most up to date terms of employment from them in the post, and I can't find any provision to delve into my private account (whether held with them or not) and steal from me (before you say anything, I know it's not theft really)."
and several subsequent posts from you and others went on to discuss whether there was an issue in employment law - because not many people actually ring ACAS about banking regulations - then I have explained the employment law position. I did not suggest that you disagreed with the fact that you owed the money - what I said is that employment law does not support your position that so you should really ask the right people for advice. And you seem very insistant that the employer/bank has acted unlawfully in what they did, but very resistant to asking the right people who might know more about this than anyone on this board whether they have in fact done so.

But the fact that you left without giving notice and knowing that you owed your employer money having just taken out a loan from them is very relevant to your employers position because the right to reclaim that money originates in employment law, not banking regulations, since the overpayment was a payroll error - that only leaves the banking regulations to fall back on, as I said.

Sorry, I may have misinterpreted your tone.

There is not question on either side as far as employment law is concerned: they are fully entitled to the money back (no argument there); and they are entitled to reclaim it as per my Terms of Employment. As these contain no reference to entering my account, any defence based on employment law falls down. (In addition, as above, I have already spoken with ACAS)

As far as banking law is concerned, I already spoke to the FSA who confirmed that there is no provision for them just by being a bank. The only remaining avenue would be the T&Cs on the staff account; but as of the 4th it could no longer be a staff account, plus they have not brought up anything regarding the account's terms in their defence, only 'common law' and my terms of employment.

Uncertain

SarEl wrote: »

- that only leaves the banking regulations to fall back on, as I said.

Indeed....

Which was pretty much the point I made right back at post No 4!

Obviously it doesn't matter how bad an employee the OP was or that he walked out without notice. Either, under the banking regulations, a credit such as this can be recalled or it can't. There MUST be a clear and simple answer to this.

It is not my area but if i was going to hazard a guess I would suspect that another employer would find it pretty much impossible to do as Santandar hove done here. I wouldn't mind a small bet they have bent the rules to suit themselves.

Although it wont be quick, it will cost nothing to take the to the FOS.

Naf

getmore4less wrote: »

All your santander accounts will most probably have offsetting for ANY debt to santander, other accounts,CC, loans etc or debt resulting from employment.

NO need for them to be in the employment particulars.

Best you go away and check those T&C's

Santander_T&Cs wrote:

27 When we can use money between accounts
27.1 If any money is overdue for payment on any other account
you have with us (such as a loan, mortgage, credit card or
overdraft) we may take the money you owe us out of your
account. We can do this where you have accounts which
are held in your sole name as well as joint accounts you
hold with another person. Where possible we will give you
advance notice, unless we reasonably think that you may
move your money to stop us.
27.2 We can also apply Condition 27.1 to pay money you owe on
other accounts which you hold with any other member of
the Santander Group of companies in the UK.

'Overdue for payment' implies it has been requested, a due date has been given and this has been missed. Meaning I would have had to be contacted.
In addition, does my salary count as an 'account' in the sense meant by these terms?

Mistral001

Naf wrote: »

I don't know yet, until I receive a statement. Could be £100, but if collections have dine their job properly (rofl) it could be £0

The way I see it is that if is £0 then you do not have a case for compensation. If it is £100 then you have.

However, that is in civil law. If the Bank took this money without your permission, then it could be a criminal matter and up to the police. The chances that the police will want to know about it is about zero.

The FSA is another option, but frankly the FSA pushing for a criminal conviction against Santander over what looks like a mistake without any criminal intent is about zero as well.

You could try the tabloid newspapers, but unless you have a really good "human interest" story, they will not be interested. You know the sort of thing "War widow alleges that she was stollen from by Spanish bank who made £xxx million profits last year". At the minute the story will be "Ex-employee trying to prove that employer acted illegally by taking money out of her account without her permission". Not front page news.

Perhaps you could try some of the broadsheet newspapers. Papers which are read by chiefs of competing banks and lawyers who might be interested in the pure legal technicalities of this.

If there is a civil case then any criminal matter might be referred to the PPS by say a Small Claims Court judge- wouldn't it?