Employer went into my account to 'reclaim' overpayment

getmore4less

Naf wrote: »

Still wouldn't alleviate this situation, as the 'fake' account would still have been left massively overdrawn.
Having said that, it is what I'd do in future should I ever be back working in finance.

You would have been overdrawn because you did not check what your final pay would have been and it was clearly goingto be a lot less than normal due to the loan(lease) you had only started a week or two before you decided to leave.

Did this new job materialize out of thin air.

You left begining of July say 4weeks notice begining of June time to get job takes you back into May you must have been looking or seriously thinking about it when you took the Bike deal.

Naf

getmore4less wrote: »

You would have been overdrawn because you did not check what your final pay would have been and it was clearly goingto be a lot less than normal due to the loan(lease) you had only started a week or two before you decided to leave.

Did this new job materialize out of thin air.

You left begining of July say 4weeks notice begining of June time to get job takes you back into May you must have been looking or seriously thinking about it when you took the Bike deal.

Didn't work my notice - had enough of them and the new job wasn't bothered. Yes, I found it pretty fast.

Naf

KiKi wrote: »

Shot in the dark, but it sounds to me like the £808.50 wasn't even a salary payment. OP, can I ask if the payment had the usual wording on your bank statement? Eg, my salary payments used to be credited with the words "XXX remittance advice" and I knew that was my salary.

Expenses were credited differently.

I'm wondering if they accidentally credited £808.50 which was nothing to do with the salary whatsoever, just a mistaken payment, which is why they were able to do a BACS recall on it. And which is also why they are so suspicious of your spending it (because it was never meant to be salary, but a complete mistake).

And then, because of the bike loan and perhaps holiday taken, you were owed NO final salary at all, hence not receiving anything else. Which is why you thought that initial payment must be the salary as nothing else came in.

That would make sense to me, because I'm astonished they would take back salary without informing you. Whereas an accidental payment (which was perhaps even nothing to do with you whatsoever) can be recalled by BACS.

Thus the reply from HR makes a lot more sense - they weren't recalling the bike loan from the £808.50; you weren't even *getting* a final salary payment because the bike loan was, quite rightly, taken from your last salary leaving them with nothing to pay you.

I'm wondering if that's the actual scenario, explained very poorly by HR?? Just a guess, and I haven't read every single post, so may have missed some pertinent points.
KiKi

Nah, its definitely salary error. I received a 'payslip' today that shows the exact mistake. The 'Deductions' column shows Tax & NI as positive figures (as they're going to be deducted, no point putting a '-' as well; but some fool has made this £751.05 negative, meaning it was deducted from deductions, effectively added to my pay.

Tomorrow I will be composing a reply to HR (finally received their physical mail today) both by e-mail and by recorded post.
In summary I need to confront them about:

• The error, their error not mine.
• The fact they did not contact me regarding it, ever (if they don't bother to, why should I have?)
• What is the 'common law' they are referring to when they talk about recovery
• The fact nothing whatsoever is stated in my employee handbook or terms of employment (therefore the right of 'Set Off [Off Set?] they refer to is not enforceable/does not exist.)

Should they respond to the effect that it is in my contract, or that staff account T&Cs have this in them, I should respond that as of the 4th I was no longer a staff member, so these terms would no longer apply to me and my accounts?

Anyone any other suggestions?

getmore4less

Naf wrote: »

Nah, its definitely salary error. I received a 'payslip' today that shows the exact mistake. The 'Deductions' column shows Tax & NI as positive figures (as they're going to be deducted, no point putting a '-' as well; but some fool has made this £751.05 negative, meaning it was deducted from deductions, effectively added to my pay.

So a -£751.05 deduction resulted in a £806.50 payment

That means you still owe the best part of £700.

Naf

getmore4less wrote: »

So a -£751.05 deduction resulted in a £806.50 payment

That means you still owe the best part of £700.

Nope, the £751.05 is a figure that has absolutely nothing to do with me, I haven't a clue where they got it from. The remaining bike loan is around £400, slightly less.

Jariya

Naf wrote: »

Nah, its definitely salary error. I received a 'payslip' today that shows the exact mistake. The 'Deductions' column shows Tax & NI as positive figures (as they're going to be deducted, no point putting a '-' as well; but some fool has made this £751.05 negative, meaning it was deducted from deductions, effectively added to my pay.

Tomorrow I will be composing a reply to HR (finally received their physical mail today) both by e-mail and by recorded post.
In summary I need to confront them about:

• The error, their error not mine.
• The fact they did not contact me regarding it, ever (if they don't bother to, why should I have?)
• What is the 'common law' they are referring to when they talk about recovery
• The fact nothing whatsoever is stated in my employee handbook or terms of employment (therefore the right of 'Set Off [Off Set?] they refer to is not enforceable/does not exist.)

Should they respond to the effect that it is in my contract, or that staff account T&Cs have this in them, I should respond that as of the 4th I was no longer a staff member, so these terms would no longer apply to me and my accounts?

Anyone any other suggestions?

Oh I understand what's gone on now!
Having read this and read back over a couple of your posts.

They did give you the loan payment at the time when it was due to you - the £700 but as you also mentioned they in error paid you £741.05 in error.... - you know about this as you have posted it and you also quoted their correspondance to you where this was explained. It is all up there.

You left without working your notice. You do realise that this is breaking your contract and that therefore you would not be entitled to any pay for any further days after the day you left?

If you leave without notice you don't get paid as if you had worked notice.

So..now to the payment and payslip.
This overpayment to you was never rectified at the time and because it went on your salary slip in error it will have had NI and tax deductions most likely (check that payslip where they over paid you - it will be there).

So on this payslip it shows tax and NI as negatives as they have to reverse those figs if they deducted them with the error they made in paying you the £751.05.

The £808 you received was the £751 plus tax and NI but it was not payable to you at all.

However you haven't yet mentioned that way back when they paid you the original cash amount of £751.05 in error that this was then taken back from you (as it should have been). Did you pay this back previously?
If you did it cannot 'go back' through payroll as it were.

The payslip you have just had shows the correction to their records.for tax and ni and that error in payment to you (from way back).
This should have been picked up and stopped at the point of the payslip and that money you just got paid was not owing to you.

This is why they have claimed it back as it is not salary.

Simply:
They overpaid you a random amount similar to your loan amount back in May and credited both the loan and the random to you. They highlighted this.
I cannot see (from your posts) that this random payment was paid back by you nor claimed by them...but assuming it has been..
They are now making their finnance records correct but should have stopped at payslip point and not ever paid the cash into your account.
Which explains the positive tax and ni and why they recalled it.

Jariya

It actually also explains why the date of it was different to usual pay day date. It was a records adjustment and nothing to do with salary.

Naf

Er... not quite...

Jariya wrote: »

Oh I understand what's gone on now!
Having read this and read back over a couple of your posts.

They did give you the loan payment at the time when it was due to you - the £700 but as you also mentioned they in error paid you £741.05 in error.... - you know about this as you have posted it and you also quoted their correspondance to you where this was explained. It is all up there. (I did not receive a 'loan' as such; the Bikes4Work money was never paid into my account. I received a certificate to take to a participating retailer which entitled me to £700 worth of kit - money is dealt with between the retailer, government and the employer)

You left without working your notice. You do realise that this is breaking your contract and that therefore you would not be entitled to any pay for any further days after the day you left? If you leave without notice you don't get paid as if you had worked notice. (Really shouldn't have been an issue, the new job ought to have started within a week.)

So..now to the payment and payslip.
This overpayment to you was never rectified at the time and because it went on your salary slip in error it will have had NI and tax deductions most likely (check that payslip where they over paid you - it will be there). (Nope, I was never 'paid' the money at all any time prior to this month)

So on this payslip it shows tax and NI as negatives as they have to reverse those figs if they deducted them with the error they made in paying you the £751.05. (no, this payslip shows wages for the month [£1187.25], the adjustment to make it only 4 day's pay [£1031.12-] and a small pension contribution [£7.80-]. Because all this is in the earnings column, the negative numbers are deducted leaving a total of £148.33 wages. The deductions column has tax [£55.20], NI [£35.68] and Cycle [£751.05-]. Usually you'd add up the Tax & NI then subtract, but because the Cycle figure was put in with a '-', it made the deductions column £660.17-, and subtracting this actually adds it (basic maths: 10 - (-10)= 20) making the total wage £808.50. Because this is what was on the system for me, this is what the payroll run credited to my account.)

The £808 you received was the £751 plus tax and NI but it was not payable to you at all.

However you haven't yet mentioned that way back when they paid you the original cash amount of £751.05 in error that this was then taken back from you (as it should have been). Did you pay this back previously? (No, this was never paid to me at all. This figure is totally unrelated to me until this payday.)

If you did it cannot 'go back' through payroll as it were.

The payslip you have just had shows the correction to their records.for tax and ni and that error in payment to you (from way back).
This should have been picked up and stopped at the point of the payslip and that money you just got paid was not owing to you.

This is why they have claimed it back as it is not salary.

Simply:
They overpaid you a random amount similar to your loan amount back in May and credited both the loan and the random to you. They highlighted this. (no, this ramdom amount never appeared until this month)
I cannot see (from your posts) that this random payment was paid back by you nor claimed by them...but assuming it has been.. (Nothing to pay back until they screwed this month up)
They are now making their finnance records correct but should have stopped at payslip point and not ever paid the cash into your account. (Very true; they should know how to do their jobs right)
Which explains the positive tax and ni and why they recalled it. (positive Tax and NI is normal because usually the deductions column is totalled as a positive figure, then the result is deducted)

Jariya

Naf wrote: »

I didn't know this was the case until after it went wrong and called them; then they explained to me the details. Funny thing is that the bike loan was only ever for £700, so £751.05 is completely unrelated to me. What they did was on the system put -£751.05 for the bike in the deductions column and so it was added (the deductions column shouldn't have a '-' on the figure).

Then this part of your long response to mine on page three doesn't make sense.

Scenario A they paid you the 751.05 in error and it was paid back - but now they have to legally ensure their records are straight.
Scenario 2 they didn't pay you this in error and are now getting thieir records straight but should not have paid you this element at all and shoudl have stopped this between payslip and payroll.

It's unclear from your posts whether you were paid this as part of the figure in an earlier salary and whether it was paid back or not.

SarEl

Naf wrote: »

Didn't work my notice - had enough of them and the new job wasn't bothered. Yes, I found it pretty fast.

And you were wondering why your former employers are not inclined to negotiate or be sympathetic towards your position? Any inflexibility on your part is entirely your own fault. Your were inflexible enough to leave without notice knowing that you owed them money from a loan that you had just taken out (and to be honest, the whole I spent the entire amount in 48 hours without knowing that I wasn't owed this money is looking a little thin - not that whether you knew is legally relevant) - and now you want them to "do you a favour"? TBH Santander are not exactly renowned for their flexible attitude towards employees, but you haven't exactly done anything to put them in the frame of mind to change that approach with your situation, have you?

But just to make this easy - and several pages of this thread redundant - the deduction is both lawful and not in common law, but in statute. The ERA 1996 section 14 permits deductions from wages where that payment has resulted from an overpayment (including an error on the part of the employer), and does not require prior agreement of the employee, nor prior notification to the employee. For the purposes of the law, "wage" applies to any payment made to an employee in respect of and arising out of their employment for these purposes. The payment was made in respect of your employment and terms that you had agreed, albeit in error, so the employer was entitled to claim it back. Therefore no question exists in law.

That takes you back to the first page - the only issue that remains is whether the bank broke banking regulations in taking money out of your account without your permission / notification in advance. If they did not, then the charges incurred as a result of your overdraft become your responsibility, and they have no responsibility to make reparations. So it may be advisable to ask that question on the relevant board where you are more likely to get someone with an authoritative view on the matter who can tell you what, if any, regulations have been breached. It might also be worthwhile making sure that you fully explain the circumstances from the outset too - dropping in the rather relevant fact that you had left without giving notice only after four pages of people trying to help you out is not really "playing the game".