WARNING SOLAR PANELS & some Siemens S2AS-100/ Siemens S1AS-100 Meters

utility_csa

tahrey wrote: »

Hmmm interesting thought experiment.

Let me try my own turbo intercooled diesel engine as an example - a 60kW (=80BHP), 1.5L jobbie currently installed in an old Renault Clio. Rig up some kind of thing that will attach either to the accessory end of the crank, or is just driven via the wheels (dangerous, but bodgeable).

At a steady 60mph or so, which is roughly equivalent to 20BHP or 15kW (=65A at 230V, without any conversion losses), I get better than 60MPG (haven't measured it exact, but cruising with but no slipstreaming trucks at 90km/h is 65+, 96km/h should therefore be 60+). Let's round off the edges and say thanks to various losses, it'll be exactly 60. So that's 1 UK gallon per hour, 4.546 litres. It's a sustainable generation setting, the engine's doing about 2200rpm, and is burbling away smoothly and reasonably quietly, not even using too much of the turbo.

The engine is running very close to its most efficient mode, in terms of crank-HP-hour per unit fuel; rejigging things so it would run a little slower (1800~2000), maybe with a "wider throttle" (higher fuel:air concentration, as it's a throttle-less engine) to compensate and keep the power output steady would make it a bit more parsimonious (this echoes tests I've done driving it uphill and watching the MPG - much below those RPMs, it's more efficient to change down a gear, but going beyond them causes the meter to steadily drop regardless of gear), as would switching this 2003 model for something more modern. But this is the test data we have to play with, and it's not going to do anything so drastic as double (50% improvement at the very most), so let's roll with it. NB to avoid getting into an argument over wind resistance at different speeds etc - it at matters not, as I'm working from a basis of the approximate power use for this kind of car at this speed already being known, then adding in a measured consumption under those conditions.

Pump diesel at £1.30 or so per litre makes for £5.90 a gallon, call it £6.00 for 15kWh with all things considered. Or in other words, 40p per unit. Not very efficient, even compared to a really bad pre-pay meter, or the more generous types of feed-in tariff.

The question now becomes ...
1/ would it be legal to do it using red diesel, and if so, how cheaply can you get that? (It's roughly half normal pump diesel isn't it? So still 20p... more expensive than a typical power tariff, but possibly worth it on a PPM or for feed-in if you can construct the kit yourself out of scrap).
2/ how cheaply can you obtain and clean up the veggie oil (modern diesel injectors no likey old bits of chip and stray water drops running through them), and in what quantity, given that you'll need a gallon an hour?
3/ will the cost of servicing and making the kit offset any other gains?

(Car is designed for approx 12,000 mile service intervals, though I think that's a bit optimistic for long term use; in any case, if left running 24/7, without it being used as an actual vehicle at any point, that's only 200 hours... ie a little over 8 days... before you have to change the oil & oil filter, and at least *check* the air filter/etc. High grade oil + filter for a modern turbodiesel is at least £30, sometimes £40 for a DIYer, though if you buy it in bulk - and/or cheap out and get a lower/summer-only grade on the basis that you can pre-warm it, and do the change with the engine still warm - it could be less. Then you've got all the other parts which are going to be more rapidly worn by effectively doing the equivalent of half a million miles - albeit relaxed, motorway ones - each year... ANYHOO, £40 for 200 hours use is a further 20p per hour, taking us to £6.20 ... which I guess isn't too bad. And at least you'll learn how to be fast and careful when changing your oil.)


As for overloading the supply, it's maybe not so bad. It depends how well conditioned the feed you put on the line is. But if it's "only" 15kW (or 65A), that's chicken feed compared to the total flowing through a substation; you might blow your own and your neighbour's devices, but the substation might not even notice. Or it'll trip out powerbreaker-style, thinking there's a major short somewhere.

Now if you do it with a bigger engine, or muggins gets greedy and just floors it without considering how drastically the efficiency will drop as a result (TBH it doesn't seem anywhere near as marked in this way with a diesel as a petrol - I've still never seen below 35MPG even with some truly epic thrashing - but at maximum power it's still decidedly out of it's best HP-hour/gallon zone), well, you may see some sparks I guess. Our little 80HP engine could shove 4x the power of the above example down the line, so, 260A...

Though, that's still only a little below the maximum drain of three typical houses. The substation might handle it with only a seeming minor surge (or sag ... say +/- 20V?). IDK, I'm not a substation expert, but I would hope 3 houses worth of peak-drain power wouldn't cause a total failure and things exploding all over from a substation that may be supplying a few hundred similar homes.

When we take it up higher, say to your original truck... well, he's not going to be making anything more than that when cruising, or generating electricity the same way (a truck's engine is remarkably relaxed at constant motorway speeds, on the flat), but a bigger rig may have a good 400BHP or more available if he just carelessly opens the taps... luckily not all of it is usually available from the onboard PTO... But a redneck home brew solution could therefore be chucking 1300A down the line. Things are going to melt. People are going to have a bad time. It's maybe not 1.21GW, but it's still 0.3 MW and being delivered over a longer timescale than a lightning strike... :eek:

Luckily the level of electrical engineering you'd need to actually BUILD a 300kW generator and transmission line to hook up to your system in the first place would be quite extensive - a car's own not-insubstantial alternator is usually only capable of generating 1kW or so, and you need quite meaty 10mm-conductor cable to hook up a 10kW shower after all, to avoid overheating and melting thinner-but-still-thicker-than-normal-13A-wire 6mm stuff - and unless you had a clutch hooked up / used a frankenstein style power switch that kept the contact broken until the engine was up to speed, the power output would first have to rise from the point of cranking the starter and opening the throttle, through a level where everything would trip and blow out at the fuseboard before it could build enough to have catastrophic effects further down the line.

That is literally brilliant.

Only thing you missed, dno fuses are say 80-120 amp. hit it too high and theyll just blow. :rotfl: Plus if you hit over 50kw you need an upgrade on your export metering system so you'd be watched quite closely !

utility_csa

"User manual S2AS-100 / 200 Solid State Single Phase Meter"

A “total register“ holds the total accumulation of all the rate registers. This is
a separate register - not a calculated register. There are, in fact, two
separate total registers - one for import energy and one for export energy.
An option in the tariff software allows export energy to be added and
displayed to the forward total (or Import) register. In all cases, the export
and import registers are physically maintained separately.

The following diagram illustrates the register model for the meter, indicating the main readings available to the customer. Registers stored to 0.001 kWH Resolution
Total Import | Total Export
Rate 1
Rate 2
Rate 3 - only with external module available
Rate 4 - only with external module available

So in reality the meter just needs programming to show the cumulative export. Only issue is with reprogramming their is always the risk of data being lost.

jkpaul

utility_csa wrote: »

if you wish could you pm me the meter serial number, might be able to advise you who to contact to get the memory retrieved.

Thanks very much for your offer, I hope you can help. :T

utility_csa wrote: »

So in reality the meter just needs programming to show the cumulative export. Only issue is with reprogramming their is always the risk of data being lost.

Yes, I've flicked through the manual too and it doesn't seem the most difficult thing in the world for someone with the right hardware & software to get the relevant info off there ... not me you understand, but someone competent! :rotfl:

If only Ovo or E.ON between them could muster someone competent to do it!:D

furndire

Surely if you get the data off, you will only get the amount of electric that has gone back through the meter - it still will not tell you what % of electric you have overpaid because you have a faulty meter & still will be overpaying if you keep the same meter - or am I just being dumb!!! or do you think your meter is not faulty, & the solar panels are the only thing causing the problem. (been there, done that)

jkpaul

furndire wrote: »

Surely if you get the data off, you will only get the amount of electric that has gone back through the meter - it still will not tell you what % of electric you have overpaid because you have a faulty meter & still will be overpaying if you keep the same meter - or am I just being dumb!!! or do you think your meter is not faulty, & the solar panels are the only thing causing the problem. (been there, done that)

I do actually think that it's only the unused electricity from the Solar PV generation going back to the grid which is causing the problem - I have no evidence (nor even a suspicion until this month) that we have had a long term issue with our incoming electricity meter readings.

Since you've mentioned it again though, it is something I'm going to look into. Pre-Solar we had a household electricity monitor (CurrentCost clamp type from E.ON) and that showed fairly comparable usage results, though usually 5-10% lower than our meter showed. I put this down to normal % inaccuracy and the limitations of the clamp system but I will dig further.

In order to justify the cost of a check meter though, I'd have to recover a total of about 1,000 units (~£100) over the total life of the incoming meter of 14,000 units - ie. 1 in 14 or more - 7% or more. The permitted tolerance is +/-5% so unless it's quite obvious I'm not sure it's worth it.

The Solar export being logged is definitely something I know about and can prove, which is why I'm going for that without delay!

utility_csa

Right npower are the meter asset provider try 08450710612 they might be able to help.

jkpaul

utility_csa wrote: »

Right npower are the meter asset provider try 08450710612 they might be able to help.

:T

I'll give it a go, thanks a lot!

jkpaul

utility_csa wrote: »

Right npower are the meter asset provider try 08450710612 they might be able to help.

Shall I just call & explain the issue & see whether they can help or will I need to refer to our energy suppliers?

jkpaul

utility_csa wrote: »

Right npower are the meter asset provider try 08450710612 they might be able to help.

I spoke to npower who were incredulous at the wild goose chase that's been necessary. :rotfl:

They said they couldn't do anything without the electricity supplier's request, so I should go and ask Ovo to call MeterPlus (npower's meter arm) and then they could come and read the internal registers. :T

I've also spoken to a very helpful person at Siemens who said they couldn't do it or help me to, but were very keen to advise the meter provider (I think) on how to get to the right bit of the meter memory to get the right info out! All I need to do is get someone to call them! :A

So now I'm confused ...

• Ovo - current supplier
• E.ON - former supplier
• Utility Warehouse - supplier when meter was installed
• npower - meter asset provider or meter operator as the person on the phone said
• Meter Plus - ?!
• Yorkshire Electricity - meter is "property of YE"

HELP!

utility_csa

jkpaul wrote: »

I spoke to npower who were incredulous at the wild goose chase that's been necessary. :rotfl:

They said they couldn't do anything without the electricity supplier's request, so I should go and ask Ovo to call MeterPlus (npower's meter arm) and then they could come and read the internal registers. :T

I've also spoken to a very helpful person at Siemens who said they couldn't do it or help me to, but were very keen to advise the meter provider (I think) on how to get to the right bit of the meter memory to get the right info out! All I need to do is get someone to call them! :A

So now I'm confused ...

• Ovo - current supplier
• E.ON - former supplier
• Utility Warehouse - supplier when meter was installed
• npower - meter asset provider or meter operator as the person on the phone said
• Meter Plus - ?!
• Yorkshire Electricity - meter is "property of YE"

HELP!

Utility warehouse = part of n power I believe.
Npower = meter asset provider.
Meter plus = npowers metering team
Yorkshire elec = YELG = Npower.

You could ask ovo to appoint Npower as meter operator but i doubt they would.