WARNING SOLAR PANELS & some Siemens S2AS-100/ Siemens S1AS-100 Meters

furndire

Almost time to bite the bullet re check meter methinks.




I literally burst into tears when I got everything sorted - such a relief - rapidly followed by a when they told me how much I was going to be refunded.
The support I got here from John & a couple of others was really helpful.:T:beer:

jkpaul

From: Ovo Energy (my dual-fuel supplier)

Thank you for your call regarding the query on the current metering issues.

As we discussed I have been in touch with a senior technician at Lowri Beck our metering agents, I had posed them the question relating to your research on the meter type and the potential for accessing the memory to try and establish an accurate record of usage.

After an in depth discussion we have unfortunately found that although they are aware of the meter type and the capabilities of the internal memory it would not be possible for them to access this themselves without involving the manufacturer with whom we unfortunately hold no contract.

As we mentioned earlier I have looked into other possibilities so that this may be worked out as fairly and as accurately as possible, looking into this with my manager we would be willing to look at the generation readings you have from your personal generation meter and compare this to your estimated consumption to work out a plausible final bill for the old meter.

I appreciate your time and patience with this matter and hope we can resolve this for you, if you could please contact us so we may discuss this further and of course arrange the exchange of the meter so that the issue is not delayed for your bills going forward.

So now I don't know what I want to say to them, whether to insist on a Check Meter (I think there are 1 or 2 here who will recommend that) or to see what their suggested remedy is!

I suppose I've nothing to lose by seeing what they offer, then keeping the Check Meter as a solution if I'm not happy with theirs.

I'm just so frustrated that the information is in there but they say they "can't" get it! :mad: Does anyone know a man who can or would that mean cutting the seals & breaking the law?

furndire

DON'T touch the meter, or get anyone else to do it either.. I went through all the same things you are doing now, and its not worth the stress.
Please get the check meter - you will only be running round in circles until you do - its the only way forward
Have you asked the installers to back you with payment for it ? You don't pay until after the meter is put in, & only if you are wrong & the meter isn't faulty.
Don't leave it until the daylight hours are shorter - the difference will not be as much then - so they can then say it is in the "margin of errror". It can take a few weeks for them to get their backsides into gear & fit one.

I really can't emphasise enough re check meter - remember I have been in exactly the same position as you
Within 24 hours of having a check meter fitted we could see that there was something drastically wrong & because it was long daylight hours it looked even worse.

John_Pierpoint

You will get a cloudless weekend day some time soon - send the rest of the tribe out for the day and turn everything except minor standby kit off.

If you have an immersion heater and can arrange a tank of cold water - turning on and off that 3kW load should be enough to convince yourself and any court in the land that the meter is double counting.

Does you Siemens meter have something that shows its rate of clocking up ?
Old meters had a revolving aluminium disc with a black marker and modern electronic meters have a flashing red light; one watt per flash [I can fairly accurately read the rate of usage/generation just from the rate of flashing - like old time train drivers had no speedometer but had learned to count the clicks of the joints in the rails.
In my meter cupboard I have both flashing meters side by side so it is pretty obvious what is going on ].

Thinks - I wonder how long it will be before some meter reader calls and gets completely confused.

furndire

My Siemens meter only clocked on in full units - didn't show the fractions, which was why it made it difficult to check what you were using.

jkpaul

It only counts in full units but what I'll check this evening is whether there's a flashing light or something to show the units racking up.

Terrylw1

I would advise against this.

Before they will do it, they will want to change the meter. This then means you have no way to prove anything.

Anyone approved to open the meter us allowed to do this. Commonly, this is the manufacturer or the independent Meter Examiner via Ofgem. Meter operators can't do it for obvious reasons and never have.

An estimate is an estimate. I would be careful as I doubt they have settled processes for faulty generation metering.

In terms of contract, that's a poor response. The supplier has a contract with the Meter Asset Provider (MAP) who owns the asset. If the MAP is the one who purchased that from the manufacturer, of course they have a contract! Sometimes suppliers change the MAP but if your meter was fitted by this supplier, that's not the case hence the supplier has a contract with the MAP and the MAP has a contract with the manufacturer.

Sounds like the supplier person doesn't understand the contract side and agent contracting/asset provision side.

Suppliers can and do go back to manufacturers via MAP's when they get faulty batches.
The question to ask yourself is, do you trust them and could you confirm its been estimated correctly? If the answer is no, be careful.

I would want the accurate measure myself!

tahrey

Pincher wrote: »

Remember when it was not allowed to attach non-BT-approved devices to the phone line? That was just a low power current loop that wouldn't hurt anybody. Now we are expected to export electricity across a 100Amp domestic supply! :eek:

God knows what other cheapskate gadgets people will concoct to connect to the mains. I am waiting to hear a news story like: "The whole neighbourhood suffered a blackout because an idiot hooked up a turbo intercooled diesel from a lorry to the local mains, overloaded the system, tripped the breakers at the substation, and the excess voltage killed a large number of voltage sensitive appliances. Computers with cheap surge protectors died anyway, because they are useless."

I wonder who is going to hook up a diesel generator and start over-exporting?:think: Depending on the cost per kWh, it might become viable to run a generator on chip fat during day time, export the unused excess, and only use off peak Economy 7 electricity.

Hmmm interesting thought experiment.

Let me try my own turbo intercooled diesel engine as an example - a 60kW (=80BHP), 1.5L jobbie currently installed in an old Renault Clio. Rig up some kind of thing that will attach either to the accessory end of the crank, or is just driven via the wheels (dangerous, but bodgeable).

At a steady 60mph or so, which is roughly equivalent to 20BHP or 15kW (=65A at 230V, without any conversion losses), I get better than 60MPG (haven't measured it exact, but cruising with but no slipstreaming trucks at 90km/h is 65+, 96km/h should therefore be 60+). Let's round off the edges and say thanks to various losses, it'll be exactly 60. So that's 1 UK gallon per hour, 4.546 litres. It's a sustainable generation setting, the engine's doing about 2200rpm, and is burbling away smoothly and reasonably quietly, not even using too much of the turbo.

The engine is running very close to its most efficient mode, in terms of crank-HP-hour per unit fuel; rejigging things so it would run a little slower (1800~2000), maybe with a "wider throttle" (higher fuel:air concentration, as it's a throttle-less engine) to compensate and keep the power output steady would make it a bit more parsimonious (this echoes tests I've done driving it uphill and watching the MPG - much below those RPMs, it's more efficient to change down a gear, but going beyond them causes the meter to steadily drop regardless of gear), as would switching this 2003 model for something more modern. But this is the test data we have to play with, and it's not going to do anything so drastic as double (50% improvement at the very most), so let's roll with it. NB to avoid getting into an argument over wind resistance at different speeds etc - it at matters not, as I'm working from a basis of the approximate power use for this kind of car at this speed already being known, then adding in a measured consumption under those conditions.

Pump diesel at £1.30 or so per litre makes for £5.90 a gallon, call it £6.00 for 15kWh with all things considered. Or in other words, 40p per unit. Not very efficient, even compared to a really bad pre-pay meter, or the more generous types of feed-in tariff.

The question now becomes ...
1/ would it be legal to do it using red diesel, and if so, how cheaply can you get that? (It's roughly half normal pump diesel isn't it? So still 20p... more expensive than a typical power tariff, but possibly worth it on a PPM or for feed-in if you can construct the kit yourself out of scrap).
2/ how cheaply can you obtain and clean up the veggie oil (modern diesel injectors no likey old bits of chip and stray water drops running through them), and in what quantity, given that you'll need a gallon an hour?
3/ will the cost of servicing and making the kit offset any other gains?

(Car is designed for approx 12,000 mile service intervals, though I think that's a bit optimistic for long term use; in any case, if left running 24/7, without it being used as an actual vehicle at any point, that's only 200 hours... ie a little over 8 days... before you have to change the oil & oil filter, and at least *check* the air filter/etc. High grade oil + filter for a modern turbodiesel is at least £30, sometimes £40 for a DIYer, though if you buy it in bulk - and/or cheap out and get a lower/summer-only grade on the basis that you can pre-warm it, and do the change with the engine still warm - it could be less. Then you've got all the other parts which are going to be more rapidly worn by effectively doing the equivalent of half a million miles - albeit relaxed, motorway ones - each year... ANYHOO, £40 for 200 hours use is a further 20p per hour, taking us to £6.20 ... which I guess isn't too bad. And at least you'll learn how to be fast and careful when changing your oil.)


As for overloading the supply, it's maybe not so bad. It depends how well conditioned the feed you put on the line is. But if it's "only" 15kW (or 65A), that's chicken feed compared to the total flowing through a substation; you might blow your own and your neighbour's devices, but the substation might not even notice. Or it'll trip out powerbreaker-style, thinking there's a major short somewhere.

Now if you do it with a bigger engine, or muggins gets greedy and just floors it without considering how drastically the efficiency will drop as a result (TBH it doesn't seem anywhere near as marked in this way with a diesel as a petrol - I've still never seen below 35MPG even with some truly epic thrashing - but at maximum power it's still decidedly out of it's best HP-hour/gallon zone), well, you may see some sparks I guess. Our little 80HP engine could shove 4x the power of the above example down the line, so, 260A...

Though, that's still only a little below the maximum drain of three typical houses. The substation might handle it with only a seeming minor surge (or sag ... say +/- 20V?). IDK, I'm not a substation expert, but I would hope 3 houses worth of peak-drain power wouldn't cause a total failure and things exploding all over from a substation that may be supplying a few hundred similar homes.

When we take it up higher, say to your original truck... well, he's not going to be making anything more than that when cruising, or generating electricity the same way (a truck's engine is remarkably relaxed at constant motorway speeds, on the flat), but a bigger rig may have a good 400BHP or more available if he just carelessly opens the taps... luckily not all of it is usually available from the onboard PTO... But a redneck home brew solution could therefore be chucking 1300A down the line. Things are going to melt. People are going to have a bad time. It's maybe not 1.21GW, but it's still 0.3 MW and being delivered over a longer timescale than a lightning strike... :eek:

Luckily the level of electrical engineering you'd need to actually BUILD a 300kW generator and transmission line to hook up to your system in the first place would be quite extensive - a car's own not-insubstantial alternator is usually only capable of generating 1kW or so, and you need quite meaty 10mm-conductor cable to hook up a 10kW shower after all, to avoid overheating and melting thinner-but-still-thicker-than-normal-13A-wire 6mm stuff - and unless you had a clutch hooked up / used a frankenstein style power switch that kept the contact broken until the engine was up to speed, the power output would first have to rise from the point of cranking the starter and opening the throttle, through a level where everything would trip and blow out at the fuseboard before it could build enough to have catastrophic effects further down the line.

John_Pierpoint

Southern Spain and Sicily are already at the point where PV makes economic sense on a "net metering" basis.
In other words it would make sense for both the home owner and the electricity company to have one of those reversible meters. Mind you down there they use generation that is not much more than a diesel lorry engine and there is a lot more PV electricity available 365 days per year.

Running my Vauxhall Astra on veg oil

jkpaul

Update on this saga:

As expected Ovo wanted to change "my" import meter and then discuss the overcharge afterwards. I said this wasn't acceptable and that a few days delay in changing it would not be a big problem - we just needed to come to an agreement first.

As suggested by Ovo I sent them my weekly "import" meter and generation meter readings from before we had PV installed (Nov 11) to last weekend.

Basically this showed the following:
"import" meter
average 15 kWh/day (13-17) with E.ON pre-PV (Sept / Oct / Nov)
average 17.5 kWh/day (15-20) with E.ON & PV (Nov / Dec / Jan / Feb)
average 18 kWh/day (13-23) with Ovo & PV (Feb - July)
overall average 17.5 kWh/day (13-23) (Sept - July)

generation meter
average 5 kWh/day (3-8) with E.ON & PV (Nov - Feb)
average 12 kWh/day (6-20) with Ovo & PV (Feb - July)
overall average 9 kWh/day (3-20) (Nov - July)

Their response was:

Thank you for the spread sheet containing the meter reading history.

I have looked at this with one of my colleagues in our billing department to try to give you an example of how your daily usage would be billed based on the generation readings provided.

...

Going over this with my manager we would like to propose that we would re-bill you for the total consumption used to the date of the meter exchange, minus 6 units per day.

This is equivalent to a credit for 834 units (mid-Feb - July) and is less than I was expecting. I therefore asked them to consider the check meter or increase the credit it to a level I thought was reasonable - at least 9 kWh per day on average.

They rejected this:

As mentioned in previous discussions a check meter would be possible however I have already discussed this with my manager and we could not offer this free of charge additionally the check meter will only tell us the current consumption at this particular moment in time, it would still mean estimation would be required to create a bill.

Unfortunately when proposing recalculation to the billing we would only look to use the actual consumption figures as they’re provided, I appreciate that since your PV installation you may have becoming more consumption savvy, it’s an unknown quantity and very difficult for us to anticipate the effect this will have.

With regards to extracting the information from the internal log within the meter, this is not something we’re able to do. As a smart supplier we do not have all the available technology that may be present elsewhere in the Industry, however we are happy to meet expectations where we can. In this instance we’re not able to access the information and we’ll not be able to take this into consideration when looking at the re-calculation of your bill.

If you would like us to continue with the revised billing as proposed in my previous correspondence please do let us know.

Once this is confirmed we’ll be able to arrange with you a suitable time to have the meter exchange carried out to have the functionality of your meter updated to be able to correctly clock your consumption.

I apologise for any inconvenience this may cause, if you’re unhappy with my response and wish to have this escalated please contact our feedback team at feedback@ovoenergy.com who will look into this for you. This will begin our complaints process, which, should the need arise for this to be escalated further, will need to be followed.

So, as well as contacting E.ON to ask for their remedy to their part of the overcharging (waiting for a call!) I'm going to send the following to Ovo to summarise and begin my complaint:

As things stand we don't have any accurate info at all regarding our true usage of power since 22nd Nov 2011 (Solar PV installation) and for the whole duration of our Ovo account:

• the incoming electricity meter has been recording not only the incoming feed but also what we generate but do not use and therefore export to the grid.
• the estimated usage figures based upon previous years' readings do not take account of the recently installed Solar PV system which allows us free & unrecorded use of a 4kWp array, at times up to a nominal 4kWh level.
• replacing the incoming meter now would give us our true incoming electricity level in future but would not go any significant way to documenting what our historical incoming, generated & used or generated & exported levels of electricity were.
• in my view there is 1 ideal way of getting the accurate information regarding the level of overcharge: to interrogate the only place where the relevant figures are stored - our currently installed meter to analyse the incoming & outgoing levels of power on a daily basis.
• the second best way to get some idea of what the relevant levels of electricity usage & export have been, would be to install a check meter next to the current meter to gauge the relevant levels over the coming weeks. This method would at least give us an idea of what the magnitude of the overcharge is on a daily basis and we could therefore extrapolate from that the probable levels of historical use, generation & overcharge.
• for me, simply guesstimating the average level of excess generation & overcharge is simply too open to inaccuracy one way or another.
• I feel that an estimated figure of 6 units per day overcharge in a rebilling is on the low side but I'd actually be happier with an evidence-based figure of an average 6 units per day, because at least I'd know there was a data-based and accurate source to it.
• you see I'm sure that on some days we've been overcharged by less than 6kWh, however on days when we've been generating 20, 25 and 30 units it's likely we've been exporting 3 and 4 times that figure.
• the incoming meter analysis solution would also give us the data we need to pursue E.ON who were our supplier at the time of PV installation, who should have picked up on the incompatibility of our meter with that system and should have changed it.
• E.ON supplied us before we switched to Ovo (a move I'm now regretting!) and therefore were also overcharging us for 3 months. If we are prevented from getting the accurate data then we will have the same merry-go-round of negotiation and counter-argument with them, something which I'd really rather avoid.
• I'm aware that your contracts and systems have not been used for this kind of investigation yet, however that doesn't mean it is impossible, nor that someone else couldn't do it for you. If E.ON's engineers could do it, perhaps that would be a solution which could be arranged?

I realise it's a risk that I might regret, but I'd be happier with 6 units/day (or perhaps less) but knowing it's based on fact (or at least some evidence) rather than just a wet finger stuck in the air.

Any other thoughts / advice / contributions before I send this off would be appreciated!

P