Suspended from work

harddy

Hi everyone,
I was suspended from work last week on full pay while an investigation is being arranged. It was Gross-misconduct if I remember her saying.
My Manager suspended me because I reacted to her insult! I went to see her about a work related issue which she should sort out, and she was very unpleasant and said angrily "...use your brains..." I found that very insulting (as I have always been a competent person), I replied instantly without thinking and said "Do not F***ing insult me", me and her never got on well for almost 3 years I have worked for this company.
Any feedback on what do you think will come out of this would be much appreciated guys.

gordikin

You clearly do need to learn to use your brains if you swore at her. A final written warning is the best you can hope for I feel.

fluffy70

eeshh.... hate to say it but the phrase 'use your brains' while being patronising is still quitre subjective in the level of insult. On the other hand, to actually swear at your manager can come under gross misconduct. If you had simply said, 'I find that insulting' or 'don't insult me please' then you would have a far better chance at your disciplinary.
Do you have a union membership or a staff council who you could ask for help? At very best they could give advice or moral support but from what little you say it does sound as if you have committed gross misconduct by reacting so strongly to her. They won't defend you on your behalf if they truly believe that you were in the wrong but they can still advise you in your hearing and answer any questions etc on your behalf if you feel unable to and they are your words.
One defence that you MIGHT have is if the original issue that you were concerned about wasn't followed up properly. Did you formally approach your manager and/ or others about it? Can you provide evidence to show that you were concerned about something that could have affected either the business continuity or team? You need to box clever on this if you have any chance of not either being placed on a final warning or dismissal. Unfortunately as it's gross misconduct you don't have the stages that they have to go through to effect dismissal but you CAN appeal it if you feel that you have a strong enough case.
PS if you're not in a Union etc then you can call ACAS for independent unbiased advice

DVardysShadow

Anything could come out of this. In my book, it is not gross misconduct, it is just misconduct and merits a verbal warning plus hearing a grievance from you. No doubt there will be some turn up here who will say it IS gross misconduct and that you should expect to be sacked. In my book, it would be disproportionate to take it that far, but is depends how much clout this woman has and how much sway a sensible HR department have. You are more likely to get away with it in a bigger company, I would say, but sacking remains a possibility, however unfair.

You know your employer better than anyone here, so none of us can judge the situation as well as you could. For a normal sane employer, you have to say something like "Yes, I am sorry I did say cufking in the heat of the moment. A few more moments to think and I would not have let it slip out. I will be more careful in future. I don't want to make an excuse out of this, but I do find <manager> difficult to deal with and I would appreciate some outside input to help avoid situations developing". If you are in a union, consult your reps first.

Do let them follow their process through. Your manager should not investigate you or conduct a disciplinary if it comes to that. You are also entitled to a Union rep or a colleague to attend a disciplinary with you. If the process is wrong, it is grounds for appeal - but let them get it wrong and save that for an appeal. Keep notes of everything.

gordikin

Was the incident witnessed?

DVardysShadow

fluffy70 wrote: »

Unfortunately as it's gross misconduct you don't have the stages that they have to go through to effect dismissal but you CAN appeal it if you feel that you have a strong enough case.

Do you mean that in the sense of "because it is being treated as gross misconduct" or in the sense of "because it actually IS gross misconduct"? I would only go with the former.

http://etclaims.co.uk/tag/gross-misconduct/ presents an interesting take on the subject

Gross misconduct is misconduct so serious that so far as the contract of employment is concerned it entitles the employer to dismiss without notice. This idea cuts both ways: if the employer is guilty of a fundamental breach of contract, the employee is entitled to walk out without notice.

This suggests some logic for proportionality about the OP's incident. If the manager has used the word 'cufking' to harddy, would harddy have been justified in walking out and claiming constructive dismissal? [nb I am fully aware that it is difficult to make a successful claim for constructive dismissal - I am not asking whether a claim would succeed, just whether it would be justifiable to leave the job without giving notice]

harddy

The incident was not witnessed as far as I can tell, but I have heard that she came out of her office after, and she asked for witnesses, now I can't get intouch with anyone, was told not to contact my colleagues, the way she is "a Bully" she may have found some who could be witnesses. I am a bit stuck!
I have no rep, am not a member of union or anything like that!

zzzLazyDaisy

DVardysShadow wrote: »

If the manager has used the word 'cufking' to harddy, would harddy have been justified in walking out and claiming constructive dismissal?

In order for a CD claim to have any chance of success at all, the employee must follow the grievance procedure and give the employer the opportunity to rectify the problem before taking the decision to resign. That is the mirror of the employer following proper disciplinary procedures before taking a decision to dismiss for gross misconduct.

I have to say that in normal circumstances, unless there are mitigating factors sufficient to excuse the conduct, most employers would take using offence language and/or behaving in an intimidatory manner to a colleague as potential GM - and where the colleague is also a manager, that may also be viewed as insubordination. The first thing to do is to check the disciplinary procedure. It will/should have a list of conduct which will normally be viewed as GM, and while the list is not intended to be exhaustive, it is quite likely that abusive behaviour or insubordination will figure somewhere.

I agree with the previous poster - a concilliatory and apologetic attitude at the hearing combined with a request for assistance in dealing with her challenging management style would be the way to go in my view.

DVardysShadow

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

In order for a CD claim to have any chance of success at all, the employee must follow the grievance procedure and give the employer the opportunity to rectify the problem before taking the decision to resign. That is the mirror of the employer following proper disciplinary procedures before taking a decision to dismiss for gross misconduct.

I didn't particularly want to take this discussion down the CD track. It is more a sauce for geese and ganders type thought exercise over whether OP would be justified in walking out if the manager used the f word

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

I agree with the previous poster - a concilliatory and apologetic attitude at the hearing combined with a request for assistance in dealing with her challenging management style would be the way to go in my view.

Me?

harddy

If the outcome of this is a dismissal, what are my chances of defending myself if I use one previous incident in our workshop where by 2 of my colleagues had a physical fight, I managed to separate them that day, none of them was dismissed, I would have thought that their case is worse than mine! She did not dismiss them!!!

dawn1974

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

My supervisor is very patronising too.

She says things like be careful with money and how many times have I told you.

Good luck!