CITB Construction skills

villabadger

Hi,

I agree with Lifeisbutadream. It's ridiculous to expect a small business to have to cough up for another tax especially without any consideration for profits, loss, cash reserves etc. What happens if that company has not been paid up for work carried out but has paid their sub-contractors? Effectively, they have to take a loss of income and still pay out this tax for their subbie payments - where is the consideration for this?

How am I supposed to know that our company is liable for this tax? I have never been formally notified that we have to legally submit a levy return. We get formal notification for VAT, CIS, PAYE, Corporation Tax etc but nothing about CITB Levy.

In our case, most of our work is labour only and carried out by subbies. So, I presume that the contractors we work for are including payments to us on their own levy return as labour only. For example, using just one contract, say we get £10k for a labour only job and pay out £8k for sub-contractors, are we liable for 1.5% of £8k or is it safe to assume that 1.5% was paid by our contractor on the £10k that they paid us? In this case, if it wasn't paid by the contractor (submitted on their return) which company would the CITB actually expect to pay it? Does anyone have a clue about this?

Unfortunately, the CITB guidance notes are very basic and promote, what appears to be, a very straight forward process. However, it seems to be anything but that. I'd like to be in a position of knowledge before it's time to declare my hand at levy return submission time!

Sambucus_Nigra

villabadger wrote: »

How am I supposed to know that our company is liable for this tax? I have never been formally notified that we have to legally submit a levy return. We get formal notification for VAT, CIS, PAYE, Corporation Tax etc but nothing about CITB Levy.

There is no onus on an employer to register with the CITB. However once they 'find' you - there is an obligation to complete the levy form.

A few years back, so many people were not completing the form; as the first time they did fill it in they were under the 80k [it is increased each time they need to ensure that 50% of levy payers 'vote' for them but I digress]...and they had obviously gone over the 80k at that point, that CITB instigated a standard payable levy amount to try to encourage smaller companies to complete the form. The thinking was that better shock them into completing it and get some £, than it not being completed and getting zero £.

It is hard to advise on the ins and outs of CITB levy and grant on a forum as there are many many ways of managing your levy and grant.....once upon a time the booklet they gave out to employers with the supposed rules in was completely different to the actual rules that the grants office would use; and even the staff who were going out and advising weren't told of these invisible rules......that's CITB head office for you!!! Luckily, they got rid of this about 5 years ago....so it's not that far in their past history.

There are lots of things that I would say to you about CITB levy and grant that I would not put on a forum; that's for sure...so if you do get stung, PM me!

villabadger

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

There is no onus on an employer to register with the CITB. However once they 'find' you - there is an obligation to complete the levy form.

Really appreciate your reply - thanks.

I have no intention of registering but am interested in how I will be 'found out'.

What I find laughable is the section 'Legal Requirement' of the pdf mentioned earlier in the thread - it says....

The law states that all employers engaged wholly or mainly in construction industry activities must fill in a Levy Return each year. We can take legal action against employers who do not send us a completed Levy Return.

How can this be enforced if they don't actually tell you that the company may have to pay this tax? When a limited company is incorporated you declare the nature of business so there is no way that we hide what we do. Equally, there is no reason why the company isn't notified of this 'legal obligation'. The really funny thing is that we actually have the word 'construction' as part of our company name.:rotfl:

Apart from one person all of our labour is supplied by subbies. However, digging a little deeper into the available grants, most of the funds cannot be used for subbie training especially for skills that might actually benefit our company. What a complete load of bureacratic nonsense!:mad:

Former_MSE_Andrea

Hi everyone

The CITB has contacted us and is genuinely the poster above.

Andrea

Lifeisbutadream

CITB-ConstructionSkills wrote: »

Hi Life,

It might be worth explaining what the Levy is and how it works. The construction industry training levy was introduced 40 years ago to guarantee that the industry invested enough in bringing new blood into the industry, whilst also making sure that the existing workforce had the skills needed to make sure that construction projects were completed safely, on time, to cost and to the highest standards.

The levy makes sure that everyone – from the smallest businesses to the largest - has the opportunity to train their workforce, so that they can take advantage of commercial opportunities. Only businesses with a PAYE that exceeds £80,000 a year pay levy and many small businesses that are registered with CITB-ConstructionSkills don’t pay levy, but can claim grants.

All the funds raised by the levy go back into the industry in the form of grants and other support. The decisions as to how the funds and grants are allocated are made by a board made up of people from the industry. CITB-ConstructionSkills’ running costs are paid for through commercial activity.

As an employer myself, I understand how hard the recession has hit us all, but we also need to make sure the support's there when we need it for the upturn.

Thanks,

CITB-ConstructionSkills

P.S Make sure if you do have to pay the levy you're set up to spread the payments in instalments - at the moment it's this sort of thing that can make a difference. If you haven't, ask to arrange it with one of the levy team on 0344 994 4455.

I still dont know whether you are genuine, but I will respond to you.

It has nothing to do with 'hard times' and the recession, but everything to do with the way this whole set up works.

It may be a 'legal requirement' but how do you expect companies to know about it? do you not think it would be fairer to warn small companies of the limit in advance? or do you think it is OK to 'stealth' tax them?

Put yourself in my shoes. I work around 40 hours a week - OH works up to 90. We made a profit of £48K between us last year (so £24K each), we paid tax on that.

Now that is an OK wage. (Not taking into account the amount of stress that goes into running your own business though!) then suddenly I am asked to pay £1234. How is that OK? how is that fair? I probably earn less than most of our subbies do and yet I am asked to pay this.

Can you see why I would refuse to pay it? its the principal, not whether I actually have the money or not. Thank goodness hopefully this will be sorted out, but even if it wasnt I wouldnt be paying!

Lifeisbutadream

MSE_Andrea wrote: »

Hi everyone

The CITB has contacted us and is genuinely the poster above.

Andrea

Cross post! thank you.

villabadger

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with 'Life'. Although, we've had nowhere near his level of profit.

I'd be interested to hear from Mr CITB again - what answers do you have regarding our views in previous posts? Why are companies not informed about our 'obligations' regarding this tax?

Generally, I agree with the principles of training people to be able to do their jobs properly and safely. However, imposing a levy in this way seems to force all companies to a bide by a 'one boot fits all' rule. Everyone knows how difficult it is in the building industry these days which is why it is prudent for small companies to employ the services of subbies rather than having the liability of permanent employees. Equally, as I employ sub-contractors who are trained to supply the services I need, why should I pay a training tax? Surely, the rates I pay to them already contribute funds towards each subbie ensuring that they are suitably trained?

Any views?

DCodd

CITB-ConstructionSkills wrote: »

Hi Life,

It might be worth explaining what the Levy is and how it works. The construction industry training levy was introduced 40 years ago to guarantee that the industry invested enough in bringing new blood into the industry, whilst also making sure that the existing workforce had the skills needed to make sure that construction projects were completed safely, on time, to cost and to the highest standards.

The levy makes sure that everyone – from the smallest businesses to the largest - has the opportunity to train their workforce, so that they can take advantage of commercial opportunities. Only businesses with a PAYE that exceeds £80,000 a year pay levy and many small businesses that are registered with CITB-ConstructionSkills don’t pay levy, but can claim grants.

All the funds raised by the levy go back into the industry in the form of grants and other support. The decisions as to how the funds and grants are allocated are made by a board made up of people from the industry. CITB-ConstructionSkills’ running costs are paid for through commercial activity.

As an employer myself, I understand how hard the recession has hit us all, but we also need to make sure the support's there when we need it for the upturn.

Thanks,

CITB-ConstructionSkills

P.S Make sure if you do have to pay the levy you're set up to spread the payments in instalments - at the moment it's this sort of thing that can make a difference. If you haven't, ask to arrange it with one of the levy team on 0344 994 4455.

|OK now that we can be confident that you do represent CITB can you confirm that plumbers are no longer within the scope of the CITB levy and if any trade supplies the main materials for their work, they can be removed from the total wages bill for the purposes of levy liability?

Also for my purposes can you confirm that AirCon works are not in scope and Mechanical & Electrical maintenance is not in scope?

Thanks

Lifeisbutadream

villabadger wrote: »

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with 'Life'. Although, we've had nowhere near his level of profit.

I'd be interested to hear from Mr CITB again - what answers do you have regarding our views in previous posts? Why are companies not informed about our 'obligations' regarding this tax?

Generally, I agree with the principles of training people to be able to do their jobs properly and safely. However, imposing a levy in this way seems to force all companies to a bide by a 'one boot fits all' rule. Everyone knows how difficult it is in the building industry these days which is why it is prudent for small companies to employ the services of subbies rather than having the liability of permanent employees. Equally, as I employ sub-contractors who are trained to supply the services I need, why should I pay a training tax? Surely, the rates I pay to them already contribute funds towards each subbie ensuring that they are suitably trained?

Any views?

In my view it is a 'mini government' - someone who forces you to pay something (although the governments methods are fairer!) and then gives you absolutely no say in how the money is spent.

Our Apprentice is now in his third year. I certainly dont think the support that he has had is worth a lot - someone just comes out and ticks a load of boxes!

I agree that training needs to be paid for, but IMO the whole system is wrong. EVen if they dont change the system, they certainly need to be more open and honest with companies who have signed up and make it very clear from that start what they need to consider.

DCodd

villabadger wrote: »

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with 'Life'. Although, we've had nowhere near his level of profit.

I'd be interested to hear from Mr CITB again - what answers do you have regarding our views in previous posts? Why are companies not informed about our 'obligations' regarding this tax?

Generally, I agree with the principles of training people to be able to do their jobs properly and safely. However, imposing a levy in this way seems to force all companies to a bide by a 'one boot fits all' rule. Everyone knows how difficult it is in the building industry these days which is why it is prudent for small companies to employ the services of subbies rather than having the liability of permanent employees. Equally, as I employ sub-contractors who are trained to supply the services I need, why should I pay a training tax? Surely, the rates I pay to them already contribute funds towards each subbie ensuring that they are suitably trained?

Any views?

I would point out also that to gain access to any site that has a PLC as a main contractor (and most large Ltds too) requires the CITB's own CSCS cards and to gain one of those you need to prove your qualifications are valid and upto date.

Edit... It would seem CITB was logged in until we asked the questions!!